Chapter 45-3: Distorted Truths

[nikvoodoo]

Sorry for the late post y'all. I got tasked with something at work and fell so head long into it I nearly forgot to get this up!

Happy Monday and enjoy the episode!!

[Gooer]

:omgomg:

[UndeadSweeper]

We may get the "Return of the Skittle" in this eps. That also happen to be right after May 4. Coincidence? I think not.

[Merlin1274]

YAY!!! I can not wait!!.. Hope they find Skittles and he is a walking Dictionary for the Zombie Language..

[YetAnotherBloodyCheek]

Go, Scratch!

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/sites/default/files/2014/03/sin_a.jpg

It is about damn f****** time!

[nikvoodoo]

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention: Happy Cinco de Mayo and Revenge of the 5th!

[LiamKerrington]

Hello.

I did not know the "Revenge of the 5th" ... And this is awesome. Thank you for sharing.
Skittles? In #45-3? No, I don't expect him to appear as early as this episode.
Scratch? In #45-3? Yes. She is over due ...

I may be wrong, though. Maybe even will be wrong ... #45-3 will tell ...

Best wishes!
Liam

[Storm]

Well, if they don't find Skittles in this episode I still have a bag of 'em right here on my desk... :)

[LiamKerrington]

Well, if they don't find Skittles in this episode I still have a bag of 'em right here on my desk... :)

I am more then jealous about this... Skittles are so awesome! Here in Krautland (Germany) Skittles are rare - AND very expensive ... I hope this changes soon!

[TacticalJHP]

Downloading now!

[Storm]

Hello.

I did not know the "Revenge of the 5th" ... And this is awesome. Thank you for sharing.
Skittles? In #45-3? No, I don't expect him to appear as early as this episode.
Scratch? In #45-3? Yes. She is over due ...

I may be wrong, though. Maybe even will be wrong ... #45-3 will tell ...

Best wishes!
Liam

Decisions, decisions...

Come back May 19th for the next episode!

.......Isn't that a quote from Scratch, right before she shoots at Saul in chapter 35? :) We might get Scarface back in this episode... *Starts listening*

[Gooer]

Thought that was a new intro then....

[Gooer]

Oh no, Burt is going to tell her.....

Oh wait, nevermind. He's going to hold the info. Wonder how Riley reacts to that.....

[TacticalJHP]

Oh, no....

We are starting with Riley.

This is going to be a tear jerker.

[YetAnotherBloodyCheek]

I am more then jealous about this... Skittles are so awesome! Here in Krautland (Germany) Skittles are rare - AND very expensive ... I hope this changes soon!

Hm, they are not that rare anymore as fare as I am concerned. However, ca. 1.20$ for just about 3.6 oz are not that inexpensive.

[Gooer]

Damn, screw Max and CJ. Starting to sound like Michael at the beginning of season 1.......

[Gooer]

At last, THE GLORIOUS RETURN!!!!

[LiamKerrington]

Hm, they are not that rare anymore as fare as I am concerned. However, ca. 1.20$ for just about 3.6 oz are not that inexpensive.

I need to keep my eyes more open. The last time I saw them it was in kind of a weird fan-shop with all kind of fandom-crap, and not really good ones. Skittles were at roughly 2,-EUR the small unit ... Maybe things have changed. Where have you seen them at such a nice pricing?

[TacticalJHP]

Cj actually used her full name, Chinwe, when talking to Duncan.

Makes me believe she had an entirely differently life and persona before Dunbar fell and before She "ran" into Saul.

[Gooer]

Oh damn, next chapter sounds very interesting.

P.S. Riley really does not sound intimidating. I'm sorry Claire.....

[TacticalJHP]

16:43

Duncan: "You were supposed to keep them safe. Me! Safe!"
Chinwe: "I Tried"
Duncan: "Well NOT enough!"

And with that, Skittles just tore out all of CJs feelings.

[HardKor]

Oh crap.
C'mon Riley don't go over to the Dark Side here. I know Tardust is a little weasel, but this is going too far.
I don't know if Tar knows more than he's letting on or not. But I don know that if they beat on him long enough he'll say anything, but that won't make it true (Another meaning behind "Distorted Truths?"). And it's just gonna bring Riley and Burt down closer to Scratch's level.

[UndeadSweeper]

16:43

Duncan: "You were supposed to keep them safe. Me! Safe!"
Chinwe: "I Tried"
Duncan: "Well NOT enough!"

And with that, Skittles just tore out all of CJs feelings.

Yet CJ remind him that he was one who let him in. But not in the same tone.

[Storm]

Just a few quick thoughts...
I have a feeling Riley will die without knowing what happened to Lizzy...
I just looove Skittles for being so creepy! And the ambience in that scene.... Eeeeeehh!!
I feel kinda sorry for Tardust... And I'm starting to dislike Riley a lot...
So yeah... Great episode! 46 will be some tunnel crawling performed by mister Crazyguy and a Little bit of weasel torture, and a bunch of zombie symbols spread out through the town...
I just can't get the image of Riley singing this song (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k76IGLi6jWI) out of my head..........

[YetAnotherBloodyCheek]

I need to keep my eyes more open. The last time I saw them it was in kind of a weird fan-shop with all kind of fandom-crap, and not really good ones. Skittles were at roughly 2,-EUR the small unit ... Maybe things have changed. Where have you seen them at such a nice pricing?

REWE, my unskittled friend.

[TacticalJHP]

Yet CJ remind him that he was one who let him in. But not in the same tone.

I would say I think CJ will feel the effects more, but it did get duncan to go along with it.

In a lot of ways, that conversation reminded me of talking to my ex wife. :nik:

[Gooer]

Pretty intense episode. Find out Skittles remembers CJ and is pretty damn bitter towards her, blaming her for the attack on Dunbar (Gnex will agree with him). And Riley and Burt deciding to torture Tardust. Wonder if it will actually work or will it just give no more evidence?

I'm surprised Burt didn't tell Riley about Lizzy too, although I can see why. They need to focus now, and if he told her, she will break down even harder than she did when she found out about Angel's death.......

[Gooer]

Just a few quick thoughts...
I have a feeling Riley will die without knowing what happened to Lizzy...

Ugh, wouldn't that be a cruel, sad misfortune....

[TacticalJHP]

I'm surprised Burt didn't tell Riley about Lizzy too, although I can see why. They need to focus now, and if he told her, she will break down even harder than she did when she found out about Angel's death.......

I have a feeling that when she does find out, she will hate Burt for keeping it from her.

[LiamKerrington]

Hello.

I did not know the "Revenge of the 5th" ... And this is awesome. Thank you for sharing.
Skittles? In #45-3? No, I don't expect him to appear as early as this episode.
Scratch? In #45-3? Yes. She is over due ...

I may be wrong, though. Maybe even will be wrong ... #45-3 will tell ...

Best wishes!
Liam

I was wrong ... I failed yet again ...

[Footbutt]

Just a few quick thoughts...
I have a feeling Riley will die without knowing what happened to Lizzy...
I just looove Skittles for being so creepy! And the ambience in that scene.... Eeeeeehh!!
I feel kinda sorry for Tardust... And I'm starting to dislike Riley a lot...

i can TOTALLY see Riley never learning of Lizzy's death. it sounds like the only opportunity for a lull in the action has passed and now it's go-time. otherwise, she'll take out her frustration on Tardust.

Skittles didn't remember letting Ink in? trauma, perhaps?
the Theory of Skittles reading Ink's tatoos and obeying goes out the window when you consider how he most likely isn't persuaded by symbols that should lead him into the zombie horde. (hoard?)

[UndeadSweeper]

I was wrong ... I failed yet again ...

Distorted Truths, ever Scratch got you guessing what is truth. :)

[Storm]

Ugh, wouldn't that be a cruel, sad misfortune....

The darker the better... Sometimes... And Riley's starting to become one of my least favorite characters...

[Litmaster]

Oh, no....

We are starting with Riley.

This is going to be a tear jerker.


Jesus, now you guys don't even finish the episode before you start posting!

[Litmaster]

Oh crap.
C'mon Riley don't go over to the Dark Side here. I know Tardust is a little weasel, but this is going too far.
I don't know if Tar knows more than he's letting on or not. But I don know that if they beat on him long enough he'll say anything, but that won't make it true (Another meaning behind "Distorted Truths?"). And it's just gonna bring Riley and Burt down closer to Scratch's level.

Riley & Burt don't have to go over to the Dark Side. All they need to do is tie Tardust up in a room, then go and tell Saul that this is the guys who tried to rape his little Blondie... :nik:

[Merlin1274]

Well Skittles is still in his Own Tower.. Funny how Towers seem to be the place people goto.. I even staked out a few near me for "What if".

So maybe Skittles does not have the Dictionary to the Zombie language. I was hoping he was and could be a key factor in understanding what is going on.

Burt and Riley.. Burt should have told her.. That will not go well if she finds out he knew and didn't tell her..

Riley going to the Dark Side.. This will not end well.. Seems she is another Scratch. They both want revenge so bad it clouds their judgement.

I make no predictions for the next Chapter.. But I think someone else will die. Mark perhaps.

[Gnex]

I kept waiting for Skittles to go

"THIS IS LOS ANGELES!!!!!" And kick CJ off the water tower!!!!

[Kc]

I make no predictions for the next Chapter.. But I think someone else will die. Mark perhaps.

Or Jim... don't forget about Jim. Or Larry.

[YetAnotherBloodyCheek]

Just two things to mention:

- Tardust's situation would be worse if Burt had told Riley about Lizzy's death.
- Riley has not turned to the dark side unless she commits some rather "unpretty" things.

Until this very moment, we do have nothing more than some foreshadowing, the usual two-week hiatus and maybe another poll by Liam if Riley is going to torture Tardust and what parts she will cut from him.

My guess is that either Tardust starts talking before Riley actually begins torturing him or Scratch will prevent the whole setup from happing...

By the way, did Burt and Riley take a chair and some rope with them?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_y7YEIphts

[clem131]

I'm NOT ok with Riley and Burt descending at Scratch's level. Mostly because it is OBVIOUS that Scratch went back and cleaned all safehouses once Tardust left and that's why she hasn't attacked any of the convoys. Or do they think she did not notice 25% of her group missing?! This torture business is horrifying but above all stupid.

[TacticalJHP]

Well Skittles is still in his Own Tower.. Funny how Towers seem to be the place people goto.. I even staked out a few near me for "What if".


The closest thing to me that resembles a tower is a tall tree with a deer stand...




Riley going to the Dark Side.. This will not end well.. Seems she is another Scratch. They both want revenge so bad it clouds their judgement.

I make no predictions for the next Chapter.. But I think someone else will die. Mark perhaps.

This is much truth. Revenge is a powerful subtext in this story. Even Ink has a revenge plot...

Maybe the prediction for the next chapter is that the chapter title is "Clouded Judgment"

[pmchawk]

Does Tardust know what the list of drugs Ink is using does? If you working in his business (making drugs) you probably need to keep up with new drugs to make ppl high and how the react with other drugs. Just a thought. Tardust might know what counter acts Folastatin and the other drugs. Could be an interesting twist.

[Grognaurd]

The Two, I mean Three Towers...

I am just glad the water tower did not have a big WB on the side and have skittles pop open the door and start singing. To further flog the the dead horse. Maybe Scratch cut the Pinky off of a maller and now he works for Ink. As The Brain finally takes over the World.

Did anyone else catch the murder of crows as Burt and Riley leave Tardust in the truck to have their private conversation at the start of the episode? I ran out of tinfoil earlier this season, but I would be remiss if I did not point it out.

Anyway, when we heard Burt and Riley at Angel's grave, I made the comment that she was sounding a lot like Scratch with a maniacal obsession. Even more so in this episode as she appears ready to forgo Waterboarding and going straight to cut-boarding.

[EatMyShorts]

So Distorted Truths:
1) Burt only telling Riley about Datu and not Lizzie.
2) Tanya's hair-brained explanations for, well... everything.

[Merlin1274]

Mark came to mind cause he is in the Gun turret with Michael and CJ.. Michael always seems to attract trouble.

[LiamKerrington]

Hello.

Ok, two solid cliffhangers in #45-3, overall a third cliffhanger pending with Scratch on the loose doin' somethin'.

Means: #46 will be packed with a lot of trouble and entertainment.

- Skittles and CJ seem to have some trouble between them. But things are still kind of shady and clouded. Will Duncan be of any help? What "smell" or "special characteristic" makes him so special, and will Tanya or anyone else be able to create the right stuff in order to mimic Skittle's special feature? And how will it work out when used by other survivors?

- A big question is: How would Ink know that Skittles has helped the other survivors? Is there a deeper connection between the both of them? Or is Skittles does anxious that Ink would be such a mastermind that he would necessarily conclude Skittle's aid from whatever the other survivors do?

- Riley. Or should I say: Sith Riley. I concur with anyone starting to have bad or at least not so good feelings about Riley. In the beginning of the WA show Riley was very confident and steady. It was she who supported the growing bonds between the first Towerites. And she came up with plenty of really good ideas. With Irwin she lost track of her strength, and since she is on the run together with Burt (bad influence from Uncle Sam's Misguided Child?) she has become more and more desperate, wild, maybe even barbaric. What is it we are going to see in #46? Will Riley as much as torture Tardust? Or will it be just some solid threatening? And are we going to loose her as a beloved character of the first hour?

- Who will outsmart whom? Will Tanya outsmart Ink, or will it be the other way around?

- RANDY!!! In the first half of season 4 he played a major role. What's it gonna be with him in the last three chapters???

Best wishes!
Liam

[YetAnotherBloodyCheek]

I'm NOT ok with Riley and Burt descending at Scratch's level. Mostly because it is OBVIOUS that Scratch went back and cleaned all safehouses once Tardust left and that's why she hasn't attacked any of the convoys. Or do they think she did not notice 25% of her group missing?! This torture business is horrifying but above all stupid.

I totally agree, especially on the last sentence. It is quite astonishing that 24, a show that relied heavily on torture scenes throughout its run, became this popular.

[GeneraLee]

I'm NOT ok with Riley and Burt descending at Scratch's level. Mostly because it is OBVIOUS that Scratch went back and cleaned all safehouses once Tardust left and that's why she hasn't attacked any of the convoys. Or do they think she did not notice 25% of her group missing?! This torture business is horrifying but above all stupid.

That's if you believe he actually left, and wasn't just heading back for something else. It posses the question also, why would Scratch even leave guns behind? I don't know if he's entirely truthful about everything. At this point, what can you believe?

[Grognaurd]

Mark came to mind cause he is in the Gun turret with Michael and CJ.. Michael always seems to attract trouble.

Max, the redshirt in the turret is named Max.

[UndeadSweeper]

Just two things to mention:

- Tardust's situation would be worse if Burt had told Riley about Lizzy's death.
- Riley has not turned to the dark side unless she commits some rather "unpretty" things.

Until this very moment, we do have nothing more than some foreshadowing, the usual two-week hiatus and maybe another poll by Liam if Riley is going to torture Tardust and what parts she will cut from him.

My guess is that either Tardust starts talking before Riley actually begins torturing him or Scratch will prevent the whole setup from happing...

By the way, did Burt and Riley take a chair and some rope with them?

Does anyone think that Tardust, unknowingly, is being used by Scratch? Once he leave she may have gotten the idea to discredit Tardust by clear all the place they had been too. Cause whoever found Tardust disbelieve him. And lower their guard for her attack.

[YetAnotherBloodyCheek]

Skittles bottled - the new fragrance by Duncan.

http://www.esquire.com/cm/esquire/images/2n/esq-solution-for-sweat-013013-1PJEqV-xlg.jpg

[Merlin1274]

Max, the redshirt in the turret is named Max.
Damn.. I make notes when listening.. I put Mark not Max.. Brain Fart..

[TacticalJHP]

Does anyone think that Tardust, unknowingly, is being used by Scratch? Once he leave she may have gotten the idea to discredit Tardust by clear all the place they had been too. Cause whoever found Tardust disbelieve him. And lower their guard for her attack.

Yea, she probably noticed he took the left turn and put her plan into the works.

Scratch is a crazy bitch, but she can form a plan. And she also knows her people. If Tardust had been having second thoughts, she would let him run and get caught. Eventually he would fold and take B&R to all the places they had been, so she could camp outside one of those spots until they arrived and catch them off guard, or use the diversion to attack the colony and finally get to Pegs and end her vendetta.

My question is did they check the Observation/Listening Post near the colony yet?

[pmchawk]

Does anyone think that Tardust, unknowingly, is being used by Scratch? Once he leave she may have gotten the idea to discredit Tardust by clear all the place they had been too. Cause whoever found Tardust disbelieve him. And lower their guard for her attack.
I would think that would make them raise their guard because of being unable to trust Tardust.

[YetAnotherBloodyCheek]

Does anyone think that Tardust, unknowingly, is being used by Scratch? Once he leave she may have gotten the idea to discredit Tardust by clear all the place they had been too. Cause whoever found Tardust disbelieve him. And lower their guard for her attack.

Well, I do not know. What can be said for sure is that he is keeping Riley and Burt effectively away from the fire-station, the relays and the colony.

[Grognaurd]

Damn.. I make notes when listening.. I put Mark not Max.. Brain Fart..

Maybe, that is Skittles trick. Too many beans...

[Jannit]

Ugh, wouldn't that be a cruel, sad misfortune....

Or a blessing.


I have a feeling that when she does find out, she will hate Burt for keeping it from her.

I dunno. Riley seems practical enough to understand why Burt would keep it from her for a while. I can see her being pissed for a while but she seems too reasonable not to get over it.


I'm NOT ok with Riley and Burt descending at Scratch's level. Mostly because it is OBVIOUS that Scratch went back and cleaned all safehouses once Tardust left and that's why she hasn't attacked any of the convoys. Or do they think she did not notice 25% of her group missing?! This torture business is horrifying but above all stupid.

It does seem to be getting to be a bit too much of a stretch. I was playing along with the idea that Burt and Riley have been hunting Scratch for as long as they have but given everything else that's going on it doesn't seem to make a whole lot of sense to me anymore. I'm not really loving the Burt and Riley arc but that's just my personal option. The characters are both interesting in their own right and together they make for some awesome dialogue but that's about as far as I'll go with the idea. Just my two cents.

[Litmaster]

Skittles didn't remember letting Ink in? trauma, perhaps?

Perhaps. But still a question that needs answering. :nik:


1. So maybe Skittles does not have the Dictionary to the Zombie language. I was hoping he was and could be a key factor in understanding what is going on.

2. Riley going to the Dark Side.. This will not end well.. Seems she is another Scratch. They both want revenge so bad it clouds their judgement.

1. Yeah, and I was also hoping that he could come up with some central, keystone-like knowledge that would help put the final pieces in place, but in this short exchange he just seems like a little crazy dude who smells funny.... Now what I was hoping for... :(

2. Nah, to say that Riley is Scratch 2.0 is a bit of a stretch. To me, her torturing Tar isn't out of line with her character arc, nor would it get me to stop liking her. It's the friggin' Zompocalypse, for chrissake-- the Girl Scouts are all long dead... :nik:


My guess is that either Tardust starts talking before Riley actually begins torturing him or Scratch will prevent the whole setup from happing...

Yep, I am also wondering how much this entire thing is a setup.



Mostly because it is OBVIOUS that Scratch went back and cleaned all safehouses once Tardust left and that's why she hasn't attacked any of the convoys. Or do they think she did not notice 25% of her group missing?!

This is very likely IF Tardust really did bail as he said; Scratch would realize that Tar knew of the location of their supplies and would not try to move them before he could. However, she could also anticipate his move and have an ambush in place at one of these houses... :nik: Sooner or later, she has got to show up.


Does Tardust know what the list of drugs Ink is using does? If you working in his business (making drugs) you probably need to keep up with new drugs to make ppl high and how the react with other drugs. Just a thought. Tardust might know what counter acts Folastatin and the other drugs. Could be an interesting twist.

This is the kind of information I wish they could get from him.



- A big question is: How would Ink know that Skittles has helped the other survivors? Is there a deeper connection between the both of them? Or is Skittles does anxious that Ink would be such a mastermind that he would necessarily conclude Skittle's aid from whatever the other survivors do?

Yes, this question jumped out to me on the first listen...

[TacticalJHP]

Sooner or later, she has got to show up.



What if she never does. What if she never shows up, and that is left as an unanswered question at the end of the series, with the possibility that she is always out there, stalking what survivors there may be, still carrying her anger on her shoulders, and always ready to pounce?



- A big question is: How would Ink know that Skittles has helped the other survivors? Is there a deeper connection between the both of them? Or is Skittles does anxious that Ink would be such a mastermind that he would necessarily conclude Skittle's aid from whatever the other survivors do?


Or maybe he is just generally paranoid, like I am about how my cat knows when I get a can of tuna...

[Litmaster]

Wrapping up initial thoughts from 45-3:

Tardust = Pippen 2.0?
The Mallers have come up with this plan and used it several times before (see Pippen & Kalani). There is the possibility that most of what Tardust is saying is a lie and he is really a RAT planted by Scratch...

"Onramp near I-5"
Uh, how could they use any of the highways at all, if they were so clogged by the initial outbreak panic that they needed a helicopter just to make it to Ft. Irwin?

Duncan/Skittles 'Knowledge'
What was surprising to me was that Skittles appears to be ignorant of exactly why he hasn't been eaten by the Zeds. The fact that he says that he 'hides' is not true, based on the video where he was seen walking plainly past the Zeds. So what is the deal, here? His smell? Does he have a facial birthmark that means "DON'T EAT" to Zeds?? Or was it neither of these, and something else altogether? Is it possible that Skittles has somehow struck a deal with Ink???

Skittles doesn't even seem to know how Ink got in to Dunbar in the first place. He seems surprised when C.J. shows him the evidence that it was indeed him who let Ink inside. And here all this time I thought he went crazy out of the guilt of letting Ink inside. Also, I am disappointed that we didn't get any reveal that Skittles somehow knew Ink prior to the outbreak...

Sympathetic Character Switch?
Interesting that some of you have already commented that Riley will be cast out of your favor if she 'descends to Scratch's level' and starts to torture Tardust. Sure it's nasty, but I don't believe that anyone in this kind of world could still be alive without some stains on their hands. Morality works differently in a world where every second of every day is a gritty fight for survival...

[Kc]

"Onramp near I-5"
Uh, how could they use any of the highways at all, if they were so clogged by the initial outbreak panic that they needed a helicopter just to make it to Ft. Irwin?


That's just to give a geographical reference. For people who aren't familiar with places in LA, typically they can figure out where they are with the freeways.

[Litmaster]

What if she never does. What if she never shows up, and that is left as an unanswered question at the end of the series, with the possibility that she is always out there, stalking what survivors there may be, still carrying her anger on her shoulders, and always ready to pounce?

Interesting question, because it brings up a bit of a Catch-22 with the storytelling, here:

KC NEEDS TO CARRY THIS OUT AND RESOLVE THE PLOT!
If she DOESN'T show up, then most of us would feel dissatisfied and view this as a 'loose end' in the plot that was never cleaned up, never resolved. Despite the fact that most of us expect this will happen, it nevertheless won't feel like a completely satisfying story if she disappears, or dies in some meaningless, random way (e.g., she falls off a building).

KC IS A HACK, A MERE SLAVE TO PREDICTABLE PLOT CONVENTIONS!
But if she DOES show up, then this could be viewed as a predictable, formulaic plot convention that Kc has used where the villain comes back at the end for one last stand before she is destroyed forever. Been done a million times before, thus reflecting a stunning lack of innovation or creative risk-taking on the part of the author.



So Kc is basically fucked either way. :nik:

[Merlin1274]

I will never hate or Dislike Riley if she Tortures Tardust. After all the little freak would deserve it.. I just do not think it will be something once done she will recover from easily, hence the part where Burt asked her if she really wanted to go down that road. She will remain in a dark place for a long time or until she meets her demise. But then again I already think she is in a dark place.. Ever since Angel's implied death when the tower fell. But when you throw in Lizzie's death into the mix, I do not think Riley will ever come back from the Dark side. Part of me hopes she never finds out. But that would be because she too dies. Which I am not sure how I would feel about that.. I like Riley's character but I never had a bond so to speak, with her. Like I do with some of the others.. Datu's death was rough because why would you not like him. Lizzie's was rough because of Saul.

[Storm]

So... I noticed two kinda weird noises in the background when Burt and Riley are talking, both within the same ten seconds... More or less, around 3:29-3:39.
First one is right after Riley's asked what they should do with Tardust, the other one is while Burt says 'Maybe not. Let's just hear what he has to say'
Another thing... The file contains 45.3...twice...Both episodes have those two funy sounds too...

[UndeadSweeper]

Wrapping up initial thoughts from 45-3:

Sympathetic Character Switch?
Interesting that some of you have already commented that Riley will be cast out of your favor if she 'descends to Scratch's level' and starts to torture Tardust. Sure it's nasty, but I don't believe that anyone in this kind of world could still be alive without some stains on their hands. Morality works differently in a world where every second of every day is a gritty fight for survival...

Hmm, I don't like that idea. Morality shouldn't take a backseat, when things go wrong. IT is what keep us more human then other. If you need to bend your morality to match the world then you are just slave of that world.

[Jannit]

Sympathetic Character Switch?
Interesting that some of you have already commented that Riley will be cast out of your favor if she 'descends to Scratch's level' and starts to torture Tardust. Sure it's nasty, but I don't believe that anyone in this kind of world could still be alive without some stains on their hands. Morality works differently in a world where every second of every day is a gritty fight for survival...

Frankly I'm looking forward to this part of the story! My only reservation was the believability of two people out for blood that are able to keep it running at 100% 24 hours a day. Personally, I would think that this would've been toned down a bit more and then the hatred refreshed when they managed to catch Tardust. Again, minor opinion on plot but the end result is still something I'm looking forward to.

[Jannit]

Hmm, I don't like that idea. Morality shouldn't take a backseat, when things go wrong. IT is what keep us more human then other. If you need to bend your morality to match the world then you are just slave of that world.

A quick thought on your point UDS. According to Urban Dictionary, the definition of morality is:

mo·ral·i·ty/məˈrælɪti, mɔ-/ Show Spelled [muh-ral-i-tee, maw-] Show IPA
noun, plural mo·ral·i·ties for 4–6.
1. conformity to the rules of right conduct; moral or virtuous conduct.
2. moral quality or character.
3. virtue in sexual matters; chastity.
4. a doctrine or system of morals.
5. moral instruction; a moral lesson, precept, discourse, or utterance.

If we go with the first definition then conventional morality doesn't apply in the world that the characters are now in.

[Gooer]

What if she never does. What if she never shows up, and that is left as an unanswered question at the end of the series, with the possibility that she is always out there, stalking what survivors there may be, still carrying her anger on her shoulders, and always ready to pounce?

Interesting..... But I don't think Kc would do that to us.....

[Kc]

Interesting question, because it brings up a bit of a Catch-22 with the storytelling, here:

KC NEEDS TO CARRY THIS OUT AND RESOLVE THE PLOT!
If she DOESN'T show up, then most of us would feel dissatisfied and view this as a 'loose end' in the plot that was never cleaned up, never resolved. Despite the fact that most of us expect this will happen, it nevertheless won't feel like a completely satisfying story if she disappears, or dies in some meaningless, random way (e.g., she falls off a building).

KC IS A HACK, A MERE SLAVE TO PREDICTABLE PLOT CONVENTIONS!
But if she DOES show up, then this could be viewed as a predictable, formulaic plot convention that Kc has used where the villain comes back at the end for one last stand before she is destroyed forever. Been done a million times before, thus reflecting a stunning lack of innovation or creative risk-taking on the part of the author.

So Kc is basically fucked either way. :nik:

Well when you phrase it that way... ;)


So... I noticed two kinda weird noises in the background when Burt and Riley are talking, both within the same ten seconds... More or less, around 3:29-3:39.
First one is right after Riley's asked what they should do with Tardust, the other one is while Burt says 'Maybe not. Let's just hear what he has to say'
Another thing... The file contains 45.3...twice...Both episodes have those two funy sounds too...

Yeah, that was a screw up on our part. There was a glitch in the version in the first 10 minutes or so. I replaced the file quickly, so most others won't hear that. It worries that you said the file contains 45.3 twice? What's that mean?

[Gooer]

Interesting question, because it brings up a bit of a Catch-22 with the storytelling, here:

KC NEEDS TO CARRY THIS OUT AND RESOLVE THE PLOT!
If she DOESN'T show up, then most of us would feel dissatisfied and view this as a 'loose end' in the plot that was never cleaned up, never resolved. Despite the fact that most of us expect this will happen, it nevertheless won't feel like a completely satisfying story if she disappears, or dies in some meaningless, random way (e.g., she falls off a building).

KC IS A HACK, A MERE SLAVE TO PREDICTABLE PLOT CONVENTIONS!
But if she DOES show up, then this could be viewed as a predictable, formulaic plot convention that Kc has used where the villain comes back at the end for one last stand before she is destroyed forever. Been done a million times before, thus reflecting a stunning lack of innovation or creative risk-taking on the part of the author.



So Kc is basically fucked either way. :nik:

If Kc was going to mysteriously kill her off/keep the story arc loose, he wouldn't of asked her to do JUST ONE LINE for season 4. Personally, that would be odd to do one line, that's pretty recent in the current story, and then randomly cut her out....

[TacticalJHP]

Frankly I'm looking forward to this part of the story! My only reservation was the believability of two people out for blood that are able to keep it running at 100% 24 hours a day. Personally, I would think that this would've been toned down a bit more and then the hatred refreshed when they managed to catch Tardust. Again, minor opinion on plot but the end result is still something I'm looking forward to.

Well to be fair to B&R, they didn't keep it running 24/7.

They did also set up a pretty nice firehouse, complete with big-screen, video games, good food stores, rabbits, fuel, water, Dog the goat, and other luxuries to kick back and relax and turn the bloodlust off at the end of the day.

The hunt was rekindled after they got more Intel from CJ, and then captured Tardust from it. Otherwise, they would probably be going back to the firehouse. (or maybe the colony to Lizzy's funeral, now that i give it a think...)

But since they have captured Tardust, they rekindled the passion for the hunt of the remaining 3 (supposedly, if you believe the worm) Mallers remaining.

[Gooer]

I have to agree that Riley looks to be falling to Scratch's level with the torture idea. If they carry it out, will she still be the same person after, or just become another Scratch?

Also, with Skittles thinking Ink will know he helped the Colony, i'm thinking it's just paranoia from Ink attacking Dunbar. But how knows, maybe it goes deeper then that....

Like the cracks in Inglewood! *insert dramatic music*

[jmdavis333]

I think that Scratch is leading them into a trap, the entire time they were searching for her I was expecting Scratch to pop out and take Riley hostage to try to swap for Peggs. Scratch is too smart to just let, T-Dust slip away.

[7oddisdead]

About the only thing I have to add for this

, lets consider just how much good scratches torture tactics did with Burt. Nada, zip,zero....granted, burts constitution is most likely much stronger than tardusts, but....if you really read much into this sort of thing, its the psychological torture that has considerable more effects than simply threatening to cut off a finger, then cut it off, then threaten to do it again. If tar says nothing after the first beating,(or cut, or loss of an appendage) then it was all for naught...hes saying nothing. And at that point, well....their possibly helpful little weasel is just dead weight. The ends do not justify the means in my eyes.

[HardKor]

About the only thing I have to add for this

, lets consider just how much good scratches torture tactics did with Burt. Nada, zip,zero....granted, burts constitution is most likely much stronger than tardusts, but....if you really read much into this sort of thing, its the psychological torture that has considerable more effects than simply threatening to cut off a finger, then cut it off, then threaten to do it again. If tar says nothing after the first beating,(or cut, or loss of an appendage) then it was all for naught...hes saying nothing. And at that point, well....their possibly helpful little weasel is just dead weight. The ends do not justify the means in my eyes.

^ Exactly

I'll just leave this here as it pretty much articulates my feelings on the subject.
*Warning, Quentin Tarantino levels of language ahead!*

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ZrfcnU1FZg

[UndeadSweeper]

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention: Happy Cinco de Mayo and Revenge of the 5th!

It's Cinco de Mayo, and not a single word from Vic? For shame.....

[Storm]

Well when you phrase it that way... ;)



Yeah, that was a screw up on our part. There was a glitch in the version in the first 10 minutes or so. I replaced the file quickly, so most others won't hear that. It worries that you said the file contains 45.3 twice? What's that mean?

The file length is 44 minutes and 10 seconds. When I listened to it the first time I thought Winamp was just playing it over Again, but the file has two of the same episode in it instead of just one... I only realised this because a friend of me pointed it out. The episode starts Again at 22:05, more or less.

[LizzyFabre]

Yeah, you guys are right, Tardust is a really nice guy and doesn't deserve to be treated this way.
*VOMIT* Sorry, reflex.

[7oddisdead]

Soooooooooo.....

how do you vomit when your dead? That's a trick I haven't learned yet.:nik: and I've been dead a lot longer. :nik:

[Verse]

Sorry for the Delay. Figured with having today off I would listen earlier, but kids had other ideas.

Skittles: Still think he knows/knew more than he has shown. He knew that as long as he was alone Ink would leave him alone. That if he helped, Ink would come after him. We have 2 chapters left to wrap up the show, shed light on Ink, and finish up with Scratch. I still believe that Skittles knows something. Just so random to have a guy that lets in the main bad guy and then ends up to be invisible to Zeds. If that is all it turns out to be than I vote to change his name to McGuffin.

Riely: This does shock me. I have felt that the Z-Day has healed some and broken others. Riely is one that is broken. Puck even foreshadowed it at Irwin when he told Michael. "She will be the death of you". She doesn't know how to handle herself emotionally. When Z-Day started she buried her feelings in booze. This Scratch thing was the only thing keeping her going. People are worried that she is turning into Scratch 2.0, but I say she has been for a very very long time. Both are driven by something beyond all reason. Riely will do anything to get Scratch. Because that is the only thing that get her up in the morning. The booze kept her so drunk she didn't have to deal with these feelings. Sober she has to look at the ugly world and deal with it. She simply can't.

Tardust: Still think he is telling the truth. Not saying he doesn't deserve death. He does. Rape is a tough thing to over look. I don't think he is a plant. For Scratch to plan this means that she can see the future. CJ has some random place to look that Burt look into. Out of all the places she chooses this one to drop Tar off she does this one? She just knows that they would be looking that day and that time? Just seems odd. He serves as the catalyst to turn Riely into Evil Rielly. The sacrifice to turn Riely into a monster.

[TacticalJHP]

Yeah, you guys are right, Tardust is a really nice guy and doesn't deserve to be treated this way.
*VOMIT* Sorry, reflex.

I'm sticking by my original opinion of what to do with Tardust.




"Shoot that bitch in the face!"

[Zombie Yeti]

Yeah, you guys are right, Tardust is a really nice guy and doesn't deserve to be treated this way.
*VOMIT* Sorry, reflex.

Yea I can agree I hope they destroy him

[Osiris]

Remember that time Burt and Riley turned to torture with almost no pause? HA! And you guys say Scratch is evil? Psssshhh.... right.

[Gooer]

Remember that time Burt and Riley turned to torture with almost no pause? HA! And you guys say Scratch is evil? Psssshhh.... right.


Knew you'd come in and turn it on our heads....

[LizzyFabre]

Soooooooooo.....

how do you vomit when your dead? That's a trick I haven't learned yet.:nik: and I've been dead a lot longer. :nik:

Gah! They've found me out! Ghost-Lizzy: Away! Boooooooooooooooo...

[Cabbage Patch]

I miss Riley 1.0, the level-headed woman that kept everybody else calm and sane during the early days of the ZA and fought fearlessly alongside the soldiers. I pitied Riley 2.0, as she sank into alcoholism, depression and self-pity (anyone else now think that change started after The War with the Mallers, right about the time that Saul and Lizzie formally "hooked up"?). I had hope when we saw Riley in the battle at Fort Irwin, where she showed that she was a fearless and competent soldier. But that didn't seem to last, and I'm a little scared of Riley 3.0 as we sit on the verge of her torturing Tardust. Please, KC, let it be a ruse of some sort!

[Red Shirt]

P.S. Riley really does not sound intimidating. I'm sorry Claire.....

Kinda freaked me out.


In a lot of ways, that conversation reminded me of talking to my ex wife. :nik:

Indeed. :nik: I've got two... because I'm an idiot and I didn't learn the first time.

i can TOTALLY see Riley never learning of Lizzy's death. it sounds like the only opportunity for a lull in the action has passed and now it's go-time. otherwise, she'll take out her frustration on Tardust.

Burt withholding that information just might have inadvertently saved Tardust's life. As it stands... it's gonna get ugly.
I used to joke that, "Riley is going to stick her kitchen knives into Scratch's vital organs in alphabetical order... chefs do that, right?" Now seems to be a very real possibility for Tardust.


About the only thing I have to add for this

, lets consider just how much good scratches torture tactics did with Burt. Nada, zip,zero....granted, burts constitution is most likely much stronger than tardusts, but....if you really read much into this sort of thing, its the psychological torture that has considerable more effects than simply threatening to cut off a finger, then cut it off, then threaten to do it again. If tar says nothing after the first beating,(or cut, or loss of an appendage) then it was all for naught...hes saying nothing. And at that point, well....their possibly helpful little weasel is just dead weight. The ends do not justify the means in my eyes.

Agreed. Not to mention that any "information" gleaned from torture is unreliable at best, and often unactionable in most cases. There are other ways to get the information out of him.

Creepy, but worth sharing:

One of them is Sodium Thiopental (AKA Sodium Pentothal). Its use as a "truth serum" is controversial, but possibly effective. Worth a try rather than dirtying ones hands and going down a deep, dark rabbit hole. As it turns out, Sodium Thiopental is one of the three drugs in the lethal injection cocktail and California is a capitol punishment state that uses lethal injection. Therefore, there would be some at Eastern Bay.


I'll just leave this here as it pretty much articulates my feelings on the subject.
*Warning, Quentin Tarantino levels of language ahead!*

Let's go get a taco. :D


Please, KC, let it be a ruse of some sort!

That's what I'm thinking. More creepy:

Go with the medieval approach, here's how you do it:

Set up a room for the "task."
Collect all the "tools" that you might use under those circumstances and cover them with a cloth. Bonus points for a dentist's chair.
Bring Tardust into the room and tie him down.
Explain the situation to him implicitly.
Uncover each of the tools, one at a time and explain their "use" and effect.

During the Inquisition, merely the threat of torture was enough to get "confessions." Then again, it must be remembered that like torture, the threat of torture also can yield unreliable results.


Now, as for Skittles... I wonder if it is something as simple as bathing. The poor guy is not in his right mind and I wonder how well he is taking care of himself. He has food and water, but what about the state of his hygiene? I was half expecting Michael to remark on the inside of the water tower having a stench. As Saul pointed out waaaay back in the beginning, "Shit. They smell like shit."

[LiamKerrington]

Hello.

Sticking with morality in a world of zombocalypse makes the difference between you being a human and those things beings zombies.
So I sincerely hope that Burt's gonna intervene as soon as Riley is going to step over read lines. I have little trouble with her threatening Tardust in order to get information. But as soon as she gets into any kind of torture-practices, I would only "understand" her doing so, but also regret her acting that way.

Tardust is a weasel. And he needs punishment for what his attempt to rape Lizzy and maybe for sticking with drug-practices. But I don't remember him doing anything else wrong, which would make him deserve any torturing. Since he is together with R&B he actually gave no reason (yet) for them to act all Guantanamo on him.
Osiris: I agree with you in so far that Riley seems to turn into Sith Riley right now; this is nothing compared to what Scratch has done ever since we know her, which means either she started being evil when she killed Charly for nothing or she took Kalani's daughter hostage in order to force Kalani into actions he wouldn't have done - depending on which action took place earlier.

Best wishes!
Liam

[7oddisdead]

I think the fun part of all this is seeing where the moral barometer of the forum falls. Just goes to show how easily people can turn from civilized to the wild west. If shit hits the fan and ya'll need me...ill be living alone in a cave at an undisclosed location.

while I agree tar should have to face some type of consequences for the rape attempt, that should come at the proper hands...namely, sauls. I would think he is actually the only one who knows the truth about that.

tardust has given them all the info hes going to know already. They know scratch is somewhere, tracking a group that left the colony. In truth, even a day away from her and the other two and he likely won't have a clue what her next move is. He said it himself, she's lost control, she's a total loose cannon(paraphrasing)...how could he, or anyone, predict her next move?

IF B&R were going to go down the torture for info route, that should have been the absolute first thing they did. They wake him up, as soon as he recognized Burt. Burt should have shot his finger off. Quick, (relatively) "painless" and would prove right up front, before ANY dialogue between the two parties....tar KNOWS they are not fucking around. With the way they are handling it now, really..going from semi-friendly captors(they haven't beat on him yet,that we know of)..all tar will do is shut down... Perhaps its naive, but I tend to believe him...to much random chance for it to be a setup. So I hope its a red herring, he could have been useful, even if a weasel.

[Kc]

The file length is 44 minutes and 10 seconds. When I listened to it the first time I thought Winamp was just playing it over Again, but the file has two of the same episode in it instead of just one... I only realised this because a friend of me pointed it out. The episode starts Again at 22:05, more or less.

Weird... anyone else getting that?

[clem131]

Well, I do not know. What can be said for sure is that he is keeping Riley and Burt effectively away from the fire-station, the relays and the colony.
I think that is all he's doing. I do not believe in a scenario where he's being planted by Scratch. To plan for him being found by B&R she should have known in advance that they would, that day at that time, stake out an old hideout almost completely abandoned. Not realistic.
Other option: she has spotters just like Michael. Aside from the fact that the colony is barely keeping up with the technology and they have like 20 times the resources Scratch has, even if she had some wireless spotters set up, the storm is affecting long distance communications. So I do not see this capture being planned.

[clem131]

Remember that time Burt and Riley turned to torture with almost no pause? HA! And you guys say Scratch is evil? Psssshhh.... right.


How exactly would this make her not-evil?

[clem131]

Gah! They've found me out! Ghost-Lizzy: Away! Boooooooooooooooo...

I thought Lizzy's ghost would go "Tralala"

[Storm]

Weird... anyone else getting that?

It was only the first file I downloaded though, the one with the extra noises. The current one is only 22:5 though, so.......

[Footbutt]

the way i see it, Tardust doesn't know any more.
He's a survivalist, and he'll do ANYTHING to survive, and right now, finding out where Scratch is located is as important to him as it is to B&R.
He may give out 'false' information or, when the time is right, try to jump back on the Scratch bandwagon when convenient.

[Jannit]

Well to be fair to B&R, they didn't keep it running 24/7.

They did also set up a pretty nice firehouse, complete with big-screen, video games, good food stores, rabbits, fuel, water, Dog the goat, and other luxuries to kick back and relax and turn the bloodlust off at the end of the day.

The hunt was rekindled after they got more Intel from CJ, and then captured Tardust from it. Otherwise, they would probably be going back to the firehouse. (or maybe the colony to Lizzy's funeral, now that i give it a think...)

But since they have captured Tardust, they rekindled the passion for the hunt of the remaining 3 (supposedly, if you believe the worm) Mallers remaining.

Good points! I guess my perception of it was a bit skewed.

[Witch_Doctor]

Weird... anyone else getting that?

Not me. Worked fine.

[UndeadSweeper]

I think that is all he's doing. I do not believe in a scenario where he's being planted by Scratch. To plan for him being found by B&R she should have known in advance that they would, that day at that time, stake out an old hideout almost completely abandoned. Not realistic.
Other option: she has spotters just like Michael. Aside from the fact that the colony is barely keeping up with the technology and they have like 20 times the resources Scratch has, even if she had some wireless spotters set up, the storm is affecting long distance communications. So I do not see this capture being planned.

Why couldn't she use the ones that Micheal is using? It sound like they don't have any password or lock on them. So can she look at them and delete her presence on them if she happen to pass one.

[pmchawk]

So it begins! Restarting and found something interesting, Micheal is going over again from the beginning for "his own sanity". Perhaps Micheal is infected while he is going over it.

[YetAnotherBloodyCheek]

Is it not interesting that a story about zombies almost constantly succeeds in evoking one of the most heated discussions by a simply yet ostensible character change? There is a route laid out for Riley which of course might severely shatter how she is recognized by most people. However, could we not reckon on something like this happening, could we? The easiest way of telling a zombie tale - in my very own opinion - would be "Well, we are the good guys, we eventually lost but we always stick to the rules." I put my two cents that Kc enjoys reading the forum after having created that kind of tension. Mission accomplished, Mr Wayland!

What I like to point out that I was surprised by Burt in the last episode. It was just about how passive he was when Riley discussed torturing Tardust. I do not know how to put it right but I expected from Burt to do more than the yada-yada lip service thing.

Though this is for the record only, what if it was not Tardust that is going to be tortured - what if it was Briggs (if he was still alive)? Would it be ok if he had survived and left the colony which Scratch? Would Burt say: "Look Riley, he does not know where Scratch is." And would this be sufficient for her?

Final sentence: If they are actually going to torture Tardust, it would be quite ironic if both or one of them are killed due to something Tardust just made up out of thin air simply to safe his life.

[Merlin1274]

I think Burt's hesitance on the Torture thing is because of what he went through with Scratch...

[pmchawk]

How times change people. Riley wasn't willing to Kill Bill if she felt threatened but now she is willing to torture an unarmed person for information.

[Osiris]

I think Burt was hesitance on the Torture thing is because of what he went through with Scratch...

Or because he hasn't lost his head completely. Riley done went off the deep end.

[YetAnotherBloodyCheek]

I do not know what to say, my brain just popped this memory out for Riley, torture, Tardust and being ... stuck in the middle with you...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdX8pRDO-ow

[Osiris]

How exactly would this make her not-evil?

Did I say it would? I don't see that in my post. I'm merely pointing out something important:

We all love Burt and Riley, right? They're decent people pushed too far. We only know this because we're given their stories, we're made to love them. Now we're being shown how their history twists them to do terrible things. All the people who've cried out for Scratch's blood are going to revel in Riley getting her information... by whatever means necessary, and they're okay with it because they understand what she went through to get to that place. That's a luxury Scratch was never given. You can say, "But... but she's evil," all you want, but the fact is Riley is about to head down the same road, taking Burt along with her. What does that say about either of them, about us? I've said from the start Scratch is misunderstood, and has a great deal of trauma in her life that shaped her into the person she had to be to survive, a theory that was proven by the reveal of her sexual and physical abuse. Riley has reached a point of no return, there will be zero redemption for her in the eyes of all but the hypocrite if she goes through with her plan to torture the information out of Tardust. I'd be very surprised if Kc pussed out during the writing process, and lets Riley back down--or be talked down by Burt. BUT! We'll see what happens.

[Verse]

I think Burt was hesitance on the Torture thing is because of what he went through with Scratch...

There was a episode of Gang Land I watched a few years back. They were talking about a gang called Zoe Pound. They interviewed other gangs that went "Nope. Those Cats are nuts" due to the level of violence they were willing to do. Mainly in regards to torture and their willingness to slice you open/kill you with machetes.

I can not remeber the quote 100% but it basicly said "It is easy to kill someone/something with a gun. Anyone can do that. To toture someone, or kill them with knives, means you have to get up close to them. That takes it to a personal level. That changes you."

You have gang bangers that have killed a lot of people get bothered over the idea of killing with knives and torture. It is like the difference between shooting a deer... and beating one to death with a hammer. It is a level of cruelty you can't come back from. When you go past a level it changes who you are.

Pegs became a lot less needy after she shot and killed Latch. She started to become her own woman. Violence changes a person. Burt knows that Scratch is nuts because of what she did to him. He knows what that level of cruelty does to a person. I don't know if he will stop her from starting though. I think he will stop her once she gets started. That when he sees Tardust going through it it will get to him. That it will ruin how he sees Riley. Burt is chasing Scratch because he feel he has to do it to protect the group. He has to have a mission in life. Isn't ok with just being one of the people and taking orders. He will see how his reasons and Rileys are really different. The goal is the same, but the ideals are different.

[LiamKerrington]

All the people who've cried out for Scratch's blood are going to revel in Riley getting her information... by whatever means necessary, and they're okay with it because they understand what she went through to get to that place.

No. Not all the people. I, for example, have a lot of trouble accepting anything in that direction. Riley turns to the dark side of things, and I don't like it, appreciate it, support it, love it, or whatever; the opposite is true actually. And from what I read there is quite a number of WA fans that have bad feelings about Riley acting that way, too.

But in general I tend to agree with you: there are enough Riley-fans or Survivor-fans which seem to live by double-standards, which is btw quite common especially with civilized people.

edit 1:
[Actually I would like to "like" your posting; but since you put all Riley fans into the same pot of argument/ opinion or whatever (ie accepting her to do some torturing), I don't feel like doing so.]

edit 2:
As for Riley performing torture on Tardust: As for now we only have reason to believe that she is going to do it; but yet she has not done it, right? So maybe Burt and/or her own sanity will hinder her enough.

Best wishes!
Liam

[LiamKerrington]

The file length is 44 minutes and 10 seconds. When I listened to it the first time I thought Winamp was just playing it over Again, but the file has two of the same episode in it instead of just one... I only realised this because a friend of me pointed it out. The episode starts Again at 22:05, more or less.Weird... anyone else getting that?

Nope. I just have the first and the second version of #46-3. Both are about 22:05 long. I downloaded the files from Feedburner - as usual. So, maybe, Storm's issues might have occurred with one of the other feeds?

[Elisa]

I think Riley's character progression makes perfect sense. She is not very stable. Her drunkness because of Lizzy and not being able to cope with the ZA, and now her need for vengeance and torture. Do I like it, no, but it makes perfect sense. Burt's actions do too for that matter. He was tortured and mutilated by Scratch.

I personally still do not trust Tardust, so maybe their decision to torture or attempt at torture needs to happen. How many times did Scratch and co play these double cross tactics?

Regarding Skittles aka Duncan, I don't know but I am starting to believe that he does have a connection with Ink and maybe Raydon labs. Perhaps he was one of his experimental cases pre ZA and that's why Skittles let Ink into Dunbar and why the other zombies ignore Skittles. Maybe also the craziness and memory lapses are because of shock and experimentation. I mean Skittles said he hides from the zeds, but he was hanging around them in the video footage that CJ called out. Weird.

[YetAnotherBloodyCheek]

An innovative and obvious method of torture for Tardust might just look like this:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Chdt8P_QaoY

[Gooer]

Why couldn't she use the ones that Micheal is using? It sound like they don't have any password or lock on them. So can she look at them and delete her presence on them if she happen to pass one.

I think they hid the cameras, instead of leaving them in plain sight....

[Osiris]

No. Not all the people. I, for example, have a lot of trouble accepting anything in that direction. Riley turns to the dark side of things, and I don't like it, appreciate it, support it, love it, or whatever; the opposite is true actually. And from what I read there is quite a number of WA fans that have bad feelings about Riley acting that way, too.

But in general I tend to agree with you: there are enough Riley-fans or Survivor-fans which seem to live by double-standards, which is btw quite common especially with civilized people.

edit 1:
[Actually I would like to "like" your posting; but since you put all Riley fans into the same pot of argument/ opinion or whatever (ie accepting her to do some torturing), I don't feel like doing so.]

edit 2:
As for Riley performing torture on Tardust: As for now we only have reason to believe that she is going to do it; but yet she has not done it, right? So maybe Burt and/or her own sanity will hinder her enough.

Best wishes!
Liam

I put everyone into that category not for being a fan of Riley, but for their staunch refusal to see Scratch as a person with problems, and merely a being of pure, unredeemable evil. They tend to be the same people who lost their minds over Kalani being the rat, but felt sorry for him because of the circumstance they were privy to, roundly accepting his last act as one of redemption. The double standard is what turns me off. I don't care if you like the post or not, it doesn't stop it from being true, the Kalani fiasco is proof of this.

[UndeadSweeper]

I think they hid the cameras, instead of leaving them in plain sight....

If she was monitor them all this time, she would know to look for.

[clem131]

Did I say it would? I don't see that in my post.


You did: it is implied in the rethorical question at the end and the sarcastic Pfft... Ha!


I'm merely pointing out something important:


Now, that is more interesting! But... did you said so? I don't see that in your post :P



We all love Burt and Riley, right? They're decent people pushed too far. We only know this because we're given their stories, we're made to love them. Now we're being shown how their history twists them to do terrible things. All the people who've cried out for Scratch's blood are going to revel in Riley getting her information... by whatever means necessary, and they're okay with it because they understand what she went through to get to that place. That's a luxury Scratch was never given.

I disagree. The general tone of the reactions here on the forum is actually leaning a lot towards a strong criticism of Riley and a strong disapproval of her intentions. Most of the people understand what she went through and still disagree with her. Even the people who approved this torturing business did so without throwing parties but rather with a lot of caveats. I might have missed a post of two with the kind of enthusiastic reaction you describe as "reveling" but it's hardly a generalized reaction.
Now, "screen time" has been a lot longer for Riley than for Scratch, since the show puts the towerites in the forefront, I'll give you that, but I disagree when you say Scratch's road to the dark side was not presented to us. Riley got more time at the forefront because her road takes place, in time, in parallel with the story. Scratch is presented to us as an already accomplished character, and she evolves very very little during the story, aside from the short intimate moment with Lizzy at the hospital. But KC did it the only way he could, he gave us the backstory of her being raped once and almost twice, and her pregnancy. You yourself note this in your post. That's powerful stuff, even if it's not covering as many minutes in the show as all of Riley's evolution. Again, I think we do see the reasons for her being like she is, and still disapprove her.



You can say, "But... but she's evil," all you want, but the fact is Riley is about to head down the same road, taking Burt along with her. What does that say about either of them, about us?


About them it says, as I mentioned in my first post, that they are horrifying. I don't know about all of us, but I'm pretty happy with what my reaction says about me :)



I've said from the start Scratch is misunderstood, and has a great deal of trauma in her life that shaped her into the person she had to be to survive, a theory that was proven by the reveal of her sexual and physical abuse.


See, I was referring to this part above.



Riley has reached a point of no return, there will be zero redemption for her in the eyes of all but the hypocrite if she goes through with her plan to torture the information out of Tardust. I'd be very surprised if Kc pussed out during the writing process, and lets Riley back down--or be talked down by Burt. BUT! We'll see what happens.


I totally agree. She will be corrupted with no way back. We'll see.

[clem131]

What's up with the 12 pages only?! O_o

[clem131]

Why couldn't she use the ones that Micheal is using? It sound like they don't have any password or lock on them. So can she look at them and delete her presence on them if she happen to pass one.

What I'm saying is that she'd have to have wireless ones working during the storm, receive the pictures via airwaves, see B&R get to the greenhouse and set her plan in motion by sending Tardust. Even if she had wireless cameras, which is unlikely, the communications would be distorted by the storm which is already happening when Burt and Riley leave the house (they make a comment on that).
With the spotters she'd have to go on site and get the photos manually, which makes it even more unlikely in my opinion.

[Gooer]

I think either Riley will carry out the torture, realise she made a horrible mistake, and will be mentally changed, or start the torture and questions herself as to who she has become....

Also, i realise that Scratch did have lots of problems, many we don't know of, which made her into who she is. But, the results of that are what make her evil, due to her growing up interactions and environment, not necessarily just on her own accord. Although she does seem to enjoy doing what she does......

[Osiris]

You did: it is implied in the rethorical question at the end and the sarcastic Pfft... Ha!


Now, that is more interesting! But... did you said so? I don't see that in your post :P



I disagree. The general tone of the reactions here on the forum is actually leaning a lot towards a strong criticism of Riley and a strong disapproval of her intentions. Most of the people understand what she went through and still disagree with her. Even the people who approved this torturing business did so without throwing parties but rather with a lot of caveats. I might have missed a post of two with the kind of enthusiastic reaction you describe as "reveling" but it's hardly a generalized reaction.
Now, "screen time" has been a lot longer for Riley than for Scratch, since the show puts the towerites in the forefront, I'll give you that, but I disagree when you say Scratch's road to the dark side was not presented to us. Riley got more time at the forefront because her road takes place, in time, in parallel with the story. Scratch is presented to us as an already accomplished character, and she evolves very very little during the story, aside from the short intimate moment with Lizzy at the hospital. But KC did it the only way he could, he gave us the backstory of her being raped once and almost twice, and her pregnancy. You yourself note this in your post. That's powerful stuff, even if it's not covering as many minutes in the show as all of Riley's evolution. Again, I think we do see the reasons for her being like she is, and still disapprove her.



About them it says, as I mentioned in my first post, that they are horrifying. I don't know about all of us, but I'm pretty happy with what my reaction says about me :)



See, I was referring to this part above.



I totally agree. She will be corrupted with no way back. We'll see.

:hsugh: You've completely missed my point, but exemplified it profoundly. Thanks.

[Jannit]

I put everyone into that category not for being a fan of Riley, but for their staunch refusal to see Scratch as a person with problems, and merely a being of pure, unredeemable evil. They tend to be the same people who lost their minds over Kalani being the rat, but felt sorry for him because of the circumstance they were privy to, roundly accepting his last act as one of redemption. The double standard is what turns me off. I don't care if you like the post or not, it doesn't stop it from being true, the Kalani fiasco is proof of this.

Scratch is a really interesting character and I agree with you 100% that she is just another person with problems. In my opinion, I think the story leads people to hate her as we don't get the same level of detail about her as we do of the other characters. All of our experiences with Scratch are from the point of view of the "good guys" in the story. It's easy for them to hate her given what has happened and in a live-or-die type of situation it's reasonable.

At some point I think it'd be really interesting to see Scratch's journal. Maybe after the show is finished? It could explain a lot of questions I have about her and others may have too. What did she do before Z-Day? What was it that caused her and Latch to be so close? Yeah they're siblings but their bond seems to go much further than that. Did she go through a progression like we're seeing with Riley? For all we know she could've been a kindergarten teacher at one point. It'd be great to get the other side of the story.

Kc, there's a money-generating idea for you. Sell the Scratch journal to make some money for your next project! With as thorough as you are about the story, I wouldn't be surprised if an outline of one exists already anyways.

ETA:
She will be corrupted with no way back. We'll see.

There's always a way back!

[Gnex]

Riley is toast..... She will get killed, which will spare Burt from having to tell her about Lizzy....


Or as she is dying she will tell Burt to tell Lizzy goodbye or something..... And Burt will say he will.... And then we will all cry a single tear!

[Witch_Doctor]

I think Burt's hesitance on the Torture thing is because of what he went through with Scratch...


He sort of reminds me of the U.S. Senator from Arizona, John McCain. Tortured as a POW in Vietnam, against the U.S.' use of torture.

[Witch_Doctor]

How times change people. Riley wasn't willing to Kill Bill if she felt threatened but now she is willing to torture an unarmed person for information.

Yes, and Micheal was ready to kill Bill to get access to the roof.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/fi/e/e4/Kill-bill-vol-1.jpg

[Osiris]

Scratch is a really interesting character and I agree with you 100% that she is just another person with problems. In my opinion, I think the story leads people to hate her as we don't get the same level of detail about her as we do of the other characters. All of our experiences with Scratch are from the point of view of the "good guys" in the story. It's easy for them to hate her given what has happened and in a live-or-die type of situation it's reasonable.

At some point I think it'd be really interesting to see Scratch's journal. Maybe after the show is finished? It could explain a lot of questions I have about her and others may have too. What did she do before Z-Day? What was it that caused her and Latch to be so close? Yeah they're siblings but their bond seems to go much further than that. Did she go through a progression like we're seeing with Riley? For all we know she could've been a kindergarten teacher at one point. It'd be great to get the other side of the story.

Kc, there's a money-generating idea for you. Sell the Scratch journal to make some money for your next project! With as thorough as you are about the story, I wouldn't be surprised if an outline of one exists already anyways.

ETA:

There's always a way back!

I can't see Scratch sitting down to do any sort of journalling at the end of the day beyond a grocery list. She seems more the type to try to avoid dealing with her emotions. She certain has a Shit List though.

[Osiris]

Yes, and Micheal was ready to kill Bill to get access to the roof.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/fi/e/e4/Kill-bill-vol-1.jpg

Not for nothing, but she was sofa king hot in that movie.

[Orinks]

As I said on Twitter yesterday, I'm upset with what Riley and Burt, mainly Riley, is about to do. Angel's death is fueling her motive to carry out this action.
However, I can see the reason why Burt is so suspicious. Whenever any of the group is in the presents of a Maller it's just Red Alert instantly. They simply can't be trusted, even if they are telling the truth, the meer fact that Tardust was with the Mallers justifies their actions, so Riley thinks. That and the unnecessary death of Angel.
I can see where they're coming from and what they're thinking, but only bad can come from this. And I hope Riley learns that with the upcoming actions they're about to take, since Burt already knows because he actually let Riley choose what she wanted. Also, Burt's previous military experience would indicate that he knows that the right answer would be to not go ahead with this torchure.
Another thought I have is that, of course, Burt is still pissed at Scratch for what she did to him. So that part of him is just itching to see Tardust or Scratch have a taste of their own medicen, Scratch especially. Burt, if he was thinking rationally, should've told Riley "We're not doing this."
Just my two sense.

[Jannit]

I can't see Scratch sitting down to do any sort of journalling at the end of the day beyond a grocery list. She seems more the type to try to avoid dealing with her emotions. She certain has a Shit List though.

True but a girl can dream!

[LiamKerrington]

I put everyone into that category not for being a fan of Riley, but for their staunch refusal to see Scratch as a person with problems, and merely a being of pure, unredeemable evil. They tend to be the same people who lost their minds over Kalani being the rat, but felt sorry for him because of the circumstance they were privy to, roundly accepting his last act as one of redemption. The double standard is what turns me off. I don't care if you like the post or not, it doesn't stop it from being true, the Kalani fiasco is proof of this.

I understand that Scratch's behavior as a survivor and a toughened, hardened and strong woman roots in the fate she had. And I feel very sorry for her that she was forced to follow that dark road.
But I am not willing to accept this as an explanation, justification, or simply general reason for any behavior of her. The killing of Charly? Taking Kalani's child hostage in order to force him to do things he wouldn't have done? Twisting words in anyones mouth and to distort the sense of their talkings just to get a better position? Her vile attempt to make Angel speak in her favor, and then by failing with her attempts simply to kill him? And then the torture of Burt, just because she wanted to know where Pegs is? Except for the confrontation with Durai none of these things have to do with the struggle of her survival or can be linked back to her fate. What she did (and still does) is making everyone and everything responsible for her situation without caring for the correct links. She crosses lines as she likes, and almost everything she does is only about herself, her self-pity, lust for revenge, murder, deceit. There are only very few moments in which she has shown a different side. And I would have loved to see more of it to change my mind. But even though she somehow "helped" Lizzy, and although she seems to keep to some very basic core-ideas of working together with a few other survivors, she really is just that: evil. And I don't see anything that could justify, explain, or excuse it. Some time in the past she disconnected from most values, and she sticks with her ways not accepting that there could be others who have just the same right to survive and live their own lives.

As for Kalani: Granted. I only understand, why he did what he did. And I totally agree with Kalani, when he has said that a father would do anything to save his child. That does not make anything he did right; and here, too, there is no excuse or justification for him being a rat and adding a lot to the deep jeopardy the Tower-people got into; but people should remember: basically it was Saul's crazyness that lead to the fall of the Tower, and only very few voices have criticized that. Anyway: Kalani's deeds were the deeds of desperation. And you cannot blame him alone for doing so without considering Scratch's part in it. After all she made him her tool; and if he had not complied, Hannah would have been dead even earlier, and maybe he, too. Why? Because Scratch behaves like that. Because Scratch is an evil bitch. If she does not get what she wants, she puts people into deep misery - this happened with Charly, with Durai, Angel with direct murdering, and indirectly with most other folks around.

I guess we will disagree about this forever.

That does not matter.

And yet I agree with you that living by double-standards is way too common.

And yeah, you don't need to tell me that you don't care about likes and shit; I know you don't care. You simply did not get my point, which is: don't put everyone into the same pot, when it is obvious that the opinions vary a lot more than your postings imply. It is not "all", just maybe "some" or "many", depending on what exact topic you refer to.

Best wishes!
Liam

[YetAnotherBloodyCheek]

Yes, and Micheal was ready to kill Bill to get access to the roof.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/fi/e/e4/Kill-bill-vol-1.jpg

WTF? Go Go!

http://www.cosplayisland.co.uk/files/costumes/8765/71192/CI_71192_1353550779.jpg

[7oddisdead]

Osiris has made a lot of valid points.

the difference between scratches path and riley's goes like this.

we were given a glint into why scratch obsesses over her revenge for latch via the conversation she had with Lizzie. Her path of obsession and determination started a long time ago. Can you fault someone for seeing a goal and doing everything within their power to reach it? I can't. Does that mean everyone around her dies to reach it? Yea, kinda looks that way, doesn't it. But, that's her path..has been since we met her in the story.

riley has not been on the same path. She has been the broken glue that binds a bunch of broken people together. Her obsession is not guided by revenge, or a sense of duty, but more so by a sense of guilt(to me it seems so at least) that makes her change ugly, and signs of slipping to a dark side of sorts.

scratches dark nature has been there from the beginning, it could be redeemed -however unlikely that is- because she is not broken-. Her emotions are solid,, no matter how misguided they may be. Riley.....well...this is the kind off progression we should have expected..

hope that makes sense...damn tiny keyboard

[Osiris]

I understand that Scratch's behavior as a survivor and a toughened, hardened and strong woman roots in the fate she had. And I feel very sorry for her that she was forced to follow that dark road.
But I am not willing to accept this as an explanation, justification, or simply general reason for any behavior of her. The killing of Charly? Taking Kalani's child hostage in order to force him to do things he wouldn't have done? Twisting words in anyones mouth and to distort the sense of their talkings just to get a better position? Her vile attempt to make Angel speak in her favor, and then by failing with her attempts simply to kill him? And then the torture of Burt, just because she wanted to know where Pegs is? Except for the confrontation with Durai none of these things have to do with the struggle of her survival or can be linked back to her fate. What she did (and still does) is making everyone and everything responsible for her situation without caring for the correct links. She crosses lines as she likes, and almost everything she does is only about herself, her self-pity, lust for revenge, murder, deceit. There are only very few moments in which she has shown a different side. And I would have loved to see more of it to change my mind. But even though she somehow "helped" Lizzy, and although she seems to keep to some very basic core-ideas of working together with a few other survivors, she really is just that: evil. And I don't see anything that could justify, explain, or excuse it. Some time in the past she disconnected from most values, and she sticks with her ways not accepting that there could be others who have just the same right to survive and live their own lives.

As for Kalani: Granted. I only understand, why he did what he did. And I totally agree with Kalani, when he has said that a father would do anything to save his child. That does not make anything he did right; and here, too, there is no excuse or justification for him being a rat and adding a lot to the deep jeopardy the Tower-people got into; but people should remember: basically it was Saul's crazyness that lead to the fall of the Tower, and only very few voices have criticized that. Anyway: Kalani's deeds were the deeds of desperation. And you cannot blame him alone for doing so without considering Scratch's part in it. After all she made him her tool; and if he had not complied, Hannah would have been dead even earlier, and maybe he, too. Why? Because Scratch behaves like that. Because Scratch is an evil bitch. If she does not get what she wants, she puts people into deep misery - this happened with Charly, with Durai, Angel with direct murdering, and indirectly with most other folks around.

I guess we will disagree about this forever.

That does not matter.

And yet I agree with you that living by double-standards is way too common.

And yeah, you don't need to tell me that you don't care about likes and shit; I know you don't care. You simply did not get my point, which is: don't put everyone into the same pot, when it is obvious that the opinions vary a lot more than your postings imply. It is not "all", just maybe "some" or "many", depending on what exact topic you refer to.

Best wishes!
Liam

Funny, it's only an act of desperation if you have the complete context. If you preclude knowledge of Kalani's daughter, it comes across in a very different light--even though he's still trying in desperation to save her life. Context is everything. We don't have all of the context surrounding Scratch. We have snippets, and throw-away lines about her past. Because we have the information to do so, we put Kalani, Riley, and eventually Saul's actions into context which won't vilify them. It'll make them sympathetic.

[YetAnotherBloodyCheek]

I understand that Scratch's behavior as a survivor and a toughened, hardened and strong woman roots in the fate she had. And I feel very sorry for her that she was forced to follow that dark road.
But I am not willing to accept this as an explanation, justification, or simply general reason for any behavior of her. The killing of Charly? Taking Kalani's child hostage in order to force him to do things he wouldn't have done? Twisting words in anyones mouth and to distort the sense of their talkings just to get a better position? Her vile attempt to make Angel speak in her favor, and then by failing with her attempts simply to kill him? And then the torture of Burt, just because she wanted to know where Pegs is? Except for the confrontation with Durai none of these things have to do with the struggle of her survival or can be linked back to her fate. What she did (and still does) is making everyone and everything responsible for her situation without caring for the correct links. She crosses lines as she likes, and almost everything she does is only about herself, her self-pity, lust for revenge, murder, deceit. There are only very few moments in which she has shown a different side. And I would have loved to see more of it to change my mind. But even though she somehow "helped" Lizzy, and although she seems to keep to some very basic core-ideas of working together with a few other survivors, she really is just that: evil. And I don't see anything that could justify, explain, or excuse it. Some time in the past she disconnected from most values, and she sticks with her ways not accepting that there could be others who have just the same right to survive and live their own lives.

As for Kalani: Granted. I only understand, why he did what he did. And I totally agree with Kalani, when he has said that a father would do anything to save his child. That does not make anything he did right; and here, too, there is no excuse or justification for him being a rat and adding a lot to the deep jeopardy the Tower-people got into; but people should remember: basically it was Saul's crazyness that lead to the fall of the Tower, and only very few voices have criticized that. Anyway: Kalani's deeds were the deeds of desperation. And you cannot blame him alone for doing so without considering Scratch's part in it. After all she made him her tool; and if he had not complied, Hannah would have been dead even earlier, and maybe he, too. Why? Because Scratch behaves like that. Because Scratch is an evil bitch. If she does not get what she wants, she puts people into deep misery - this happened with Charly, with Durai, Angel with direct murdering, and indirectly with most other folks around.

I guess we will disagree about this forever.

That does not matter.

And yet I agree with you that living by double-standards is way too common.

And yeah, you don't need to tell me that you don't care about likes and shit; I know you don't care. You simply did not get my point, which is: don't put everyone into the same pot, when it is obvious that the opinions vary a lot more than your postings imply. It is not "all", just maybe "some" or "many", depending on what exact topic you refer to.

Best wishes!
Liam

Hi there, just a short reply. I would like to add the one exception to the rule: Scratch really cared for Latch. He was her constant. Secondly, without her skill- as well as predominantly her mindset, she would be pretty be pretty much dead by now. Does this make her less evil? No. But, putting morality aside, she just happens to be an extremist blueprint for Darwin's theory in a post-apocalyptic world.

[Storm]

Nope. I just have the first and the second version of #46-3. Both are about 22:05 long. I downloaded the files from Feedburner - as usual. So, maybe, Storm's issues might have occurred with one of the other feeds?

I got it from http://werealive.libsyn.com/rss... I have no clue why my file was like that, but well... Maybe it's my podcatcher doing funny Things.......

[Zombiekiller100]

As I have said before I do not trust Tardust one inch! He has survived so far only by mixing half truths with lies, he would not have survived in prison or with the Mallers afterwards. He has given Riley and Burt a 3 hour run around without any success in finding Scratch and Co., they have been very patient with him and are correct to suspect that he is hiding information, since info is power. I thought B & R should have threatened Tardust with using him as Zombiebait, that would loosen his tongue for sure! They could make him run behind their truck to work up a sweat and pull him in at the last moment, he would sing like a canary, haha, no physical torture, only psychological.
Scratch is a psychopath, having no feelings for others and acting solely in her own interests. One can test young children psychologically and establish their psychopathic tendencies. Is it nature or nurture? Probably a mixture, but not everyone who has experienced terrible life events becomes warped and revengeful. We don't know that much of her background as per previous posts, but her behavioral tendencies are well established and the only way to protect normal preZA society from her would be prison or an asylum.
What hold does Ink have over Skittles? I agree that the link must be Radon Labs. I don't think he was a test subject as it would be very difficult to test genetically modifying drugs on humans without going through the ethics committee and loads of legislation, unless it was being done secretly like Porton Down chemical test on healthy British Soldiers who were not told at all what they were being exposed to and many suffered terrible long term health consequences. I don't think he met Ink in prison. don't think Skittles was a scientist at Radon but knew what Ink was doing and therefore holds the secret to stopping him. His mind is clearly very muddled and CJ had to remind him of causing the invasion of Dunbar to ensure his help.

[Witch_Doctor]

From reading all of the other posts, I'm beginning suspect that I'm the only one who thought that Riley was going to go all Mata Hari on Tardust. http://uproxx.files.wordpress.com/2012/11/pussy-galore.gif

We all know that Burt and Riley are looking for Scratch. However, has anyone put much thought into the end game? What happens when they find her? Tell her off? Steal her panties and run them up a flag pole? Shove her into the mud? Roll up their sleeves, make a fist and say, "Why I outta!"?, Wedgies and titty twisters?

Perhaps something more brutal, such as locking her in a Colony prison, using her as zombie bait or killing her on the spot. Exactly what is everyone expecting to happen when she is caught?

Supposed they captured Scratch in bed with Tardust? She doesn't put up a fight. What would they do to her as a defenseless captive? It's a No-Brainer to kill her if she's currently threatening your life.

How does this relate to torturing Tardust? That depends on how you view killing vs torture. What would they do to Tardust, or any other Maller, if they found all of the Mallers together, around a campfire making smores? "OK guy's, she's dead now. Run along and stay out of trouble this time."


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwYDx5rDABI

[YetAnotherBloodyCheek]

From reading all of the other posts, I'm beginning suspect that I'm the only one who thought that Riley was going to go all Mata Hari on Tardust. http://uproxx.files.wordpress.com/2012/11/pussy-galore.gif


"My name's Pussy Galore" - "I must be dreaming!"

WD, you have not been informed, have you? We will indeed get our musical episode in the end.

The Scratch story arc will be therefor be concluded by this song:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMVTOxELjfU

[Litmaster]

Hmm, I don't like that idea. Morality shouldn't take a backseat, when things go wrong. IT is what keep us more human then other. If you need to bend your morality to match the world then you are just slave of that world.

I wasn't saying that anyone would like this idea, I was just saying that's how it is. There is nothing like adversity to bring out people's true character. I feel that most of us live our lives with a higher sense of our own goodness than we actually live, so if a person is somewhat selfish, for example, then that selfishness is going to manifest much more plainly in the world of the Zompocalypse than in our current situation.

By the way, I don't see there being any clean line between 'my morality' and the world that I live in; each influences the other, to varying degrees, and changes over time. Slavery, for example, was seen as part of the natural order of things by a good number of people centuries ago, but is largely despised as an immoral practice by most today. The world is continually influencing our sense of morality, so in that sense you are already a 'slave' to this world... ;)

[Witch_Doctor]

I'm digging this discussion y'all.

[Litmaster]

We all know that Burt and Riley are looking for Scratch. However, has anyone put much thought into the end game? What happens when they find her? Tell her off? Steal her panties and run them up a flag pole? Shove her into the mud? Roll up their sleeves, make a fist and say, "Why I outta!"?, Wedgies and titty twisters?

Now this is just me, but I'ma thinking that they'd be killin' 'er once they caught her. I agree with your sentiment--it's not as if waterboarding Tardust is the equivalent of wanton violence against an innocent civilian: this fucker DID attack the Tower with all the rest of the Mallers, and the truck bomb that he designed was instumental in bringing it down. He is as responsible as anyone for the death of Angel and all the other redshirts killed at the tower that day. :nik:

[Osiris]

As I have said before I do not trust Tardust one inch! He has survived so far only by mixing half truths with lies, he would not have survived in prison or with the Mallers afterwards. He has given Riley and Burt a 3 hour run around without any success in finding Scratch and Co., they have been very patient with him and are correct to suspect that he is hiding information, since info is power. I thought B & R should have threatened Tardust with using him as Zombiebait, that would loosen his tongue for sure! They could make him run behind their truck to work up a sweat and pull him in at the last moment, he would sing like a canary, haha, no physical torture, only psychological.
Scratch is a psychopath, having no feelings for others and acting solely in her own interests. One can test young children psychologically and establish their psychopathic tendencies. Is it nature or nurture? Probably a mixture, but not everyone who has experienced terrible life events becomes warped and revengeful. We don't know that much of her background as per previous posts, but her behavioral tendencies are well established and the only way to protect normal preZA society from her would be prison or an asylum.
What hold does Ink have over Skittles? I agree that the link must be Radon Labs. I don't think he was a test subject as it would be very difficult to test genetically modifying drugs on humans without going through the ethics committee and loads of legislation, unless it was being done secretly like Porton Down chemical test on healthy British Soldiers who were not told at all what they were being exposed to and many suffered terrible long term health consequences. I don't think he met Ink in prison. don't think Skittles was a scientist at Radon but knew what Ink was doing and therefore holds the secret to stopping him. His mind is clearly very muddled and CJ had to remind him of causing the invasion of Dunbar to ensure his help.

I believe this to be a wholly incorrect diagnosis. Scratch displays sociopathic tendencies, not psychopathic. The biggest factor being she understands the difference between right and wrong (rape, protecting unborn children, empathy for child-bearing women, etc), she simply chooses to ignore it and follow her own code and compass--which is indicative of the sociopath. She's far, far from a psychopath.

[7oddisdead]

Now this is just me, but I'ma thinking that they'd be killin' 'er once they caught her. I agree with your sentiment--it's not as if waterboarding Tardust is the equivalent of wanton violence against an innocent civilian: this fucker DID attack the Tower with all the rest of the Mallers, and the truck bomb that he designed was instumental in bringing it down. He is as responsible as anyone for the death of Angel and all the other redshirts killed at the tower that day. :nik:


while entirely true. Does the effects of the post-apocalyptic situation not also change how you should deal with prisoners of war?(and lets face it, that's what phillip is).

pre-z day, a soldier from an opposing force taken would be held accountable for the actions of his side. Even though, he was simply following orders. The insight we have as to tars involvement and his morale character are not things our "good guys" are really privy to. What you do not hear firsthand does not affect your judgment -or at least it shouldnt-

in the current scenario, what's more important? Revenge for fallen comrades, or increasing your own survival rate? From everything we have heard...thats exactly why they found Phillip to begin with. In a group of 100 mallers, his survival rate was 100:1. Now, with it being only four, and scratch still obsessed with her revenge....whats that make it? 3:1??? By those odds id strike out on my own as well. Still blows my mind that people don't believe him. We were given the small vignette with he and scratch for just this reason. No part of his character says "I'm loyal to the end boss! Count on me!"

but back on topic. Knowing what they do of him...does his insight help the group? That's a decidng factor for me...if you talk shit about me and I never hear it, it never happened..simple as that.

I should add....yes, they see scratch...shoot to kill. No talking, no questions. Her agenda is clear, its simply protecting others, possibly on both sides, from further death.

[Zombiekiller100]

I believe this to be a wholly incorrect diagnosis. Scratch displays sociopathic tendencies, not psychopathic. The biggest factor being she understands the difference between right and wrong (rape, protecting unborn children, empathy for child-bearing women, etc), she simply chooses to ignore it and follow her own code and compass--which is indicative of the sociopath. She's far, far from a psychopath.

Some psychiatrist have used psychopath and sociopath interchangeably, as have I. In modern psychiatry they are seen as separate diagnoses but have a considerable overlap. Scratch exhibits elements of both however more IMHO psychopathic elements: high incidence of violence and impulsivity, lack of conscience and empathy, erratic and violent criminal behavior, values relationships that only benefit themselves. She let her brother go to prison for a crime she committed ! Interestingly, studies on the brain waves of psychopaths have indicated that there is a marked difference in how their brains react to certain stimuli. Because they have no feeling and no concern for others or themselves, the threat of fear does not trigger the same response in the brain of a psychopath that it does in another person. Some believe sociopaths have a very skewed moral compass whereas psychopaths a brain abnormality in the amygdala which controls emotional responses. Compassion meditations undertaken by bhuddist monks have been analysed in functional brain MRI scans and linked to increased social connectedness.

[Cabbage Patch]

I have sympathy for Scratch, but I don't see any hope for her redemption. Leaving aside Burt, and the murder of various Mallers, the worst things on Scratch's slate are the ones that were only hinted at. The treatment of the Maller's "slaves". What happened to the Colonists under Maller rule. The short, and probably horrific life of Kalani's daughter, Hannah, from the time she was captured to the day she was executed to provide a "distraction".

Definitely a sociopath.

[Osiris]

Some psychiatrist have used psychopath and sociopath interchangeably, as have I. In modern psychiatry they are seen as separate diagnoses but have a considerable overlap. Scratch exhibits elements of both however more IMHO psychopathic elements: high incidence of violence and impulsivity, lack of conscience and empathy, erratic and violent criminal behavior, values relationships that only benefit themselves. She let her brother go to prison for a crime she committed ! Interestingly, studies on the brain waves of psychopaths have indicated that there is a marked difference in how their brains react to certain stimuli. Because they have no feeling and no concern for others or themselves, the threat of fear does not trigger the same response in the brain of a psychopath that it does in another person. Some believe sociopaths have a very skewed moral compass whereas psychopaths a brain abnormality in the amygdala which controls emotional responses. Compassion meditations undertaken by bhuddist monks have been analysed in functional brain MRI scans and linked to increased social connectedness.

The two are not interchangeable. Psychopaths display an inherent incapability to plan their acts ahead of time, they act impulsively. Scratch clearly displays the opposite. Sociopaths are thoughtful in their acts, meticulous with their planning. Psychopaths have zero moral compass, and no clear definitions of right and wrong. They draw no lines of distinction. Scratch has expressed regret, empathy, sympathy, and remorse. Something psychopaths are incapable of. Psychopaths are unable to maintain or nurture relationships, with strangers or even family members. They are habitual loners, and awkward in social situations. Something Scratch is decidedly not. She's organized, and the only thing that mattered to her was her brother. Typical traits of the sociopath.

The fact is, the only trait she possesses that would assume psychopathy is her temperament. She displays the ability to understand how to behave in social situations, but she also displayed a modicum of compulsiveness, acting without forethought regardless of danger to herself or those under her. That in itself does not necessarily make her a psychopath. The attack on the tower serves as an example of sociopathic tendencies. It was organized, and well-planned. She had plan. She lost her brother, and fell into a fit of blind rage, something anyone is capable of. Issues? Yes. Psychopath? No. Decidedly not.

[TacticalJHP]

Not for nothing, but she was sofa king hot in that movie.

Yes, but everyone in the movie had a Blood pressure of 1200/800



We all know that Burt and Riley are looking for Scratch. However, has anyone put much thought into the end game? What happens when they find her?



I should add....yes, they see scratch...shoot to kill. No talking, no questions. Her agenda is clear, its simply protecting others, possibly on both sides, from further death.


I think you mean....."Shoot that bitch in the face!"

[Verse]

He is my take on it.

Scratch is an evil bitch. People can toss out "You don't know her side of the story" and "She is a victim of her past" or "We don't know all the details" but it doesn't matter IMO. The facts are what they are. She tortured and murdered an innocent man at The Mall to cover her track with the tanker. She kidnapped an innocent girl and blackmailed her father with her. She had Hanna killed as well. She caused the fight with The Tower for who knows why. It was hinted she killed Dr. Jason to cover her tracks more murdering Angel. She tortured Burt. As soon as she realized that Bricks told on her she murdered him. Then she had dozens killed when The Tower fell. It was hinted she let her brother go to jail for crimes she committed. If Riley goes through with this she is stepping over a line. The difference is what she does later. Scratch got worse. She is an animal.

It is what it is.

Riley's path is following hers. "How far are you willing to go for Revenge?" We will soon see. We were made to like Riley more than Scratch. Scratch is that villain we love to hate. She is well written. I am pretty damn sure KC even wrote her this way for this reason. To show us how close these people are to becoming Scratch. What happens when you let go of the morals that makes us human.

Kulani was given a pass by me as soon as I learned about his daughter. I have two sons. A Four year old and soon to be three year old. The question isn't what I would do to save them, but what wouldn't I do. I would have willingly did all he did and more. I am sure anyone with a kid would agree. There is a double standard. It's called life. In a perfect world both Scratch and Kulani would be held to the same standard. They both did horrible stuff. Life is not perfect though. It isn't Black and White. At the end of the day the ideals of different. Scratch is evil and does thinsg for her own selfish reasons. Thus she doesn't get a pass. Kulani was a desperate man trying to get back his kid. He does.

On Morality when the world ends...

If this show has shown us anything is that Morality is what keeps us from being the Monsters. There are certain lines you can't cross. I want to say the ends justify the means, but that isn't the case. When you are willing to do anything you end up with nothing. Without some Morals you become an animal. Yes, your morals have to change. Pegs learned that. You can't cling to everything. You have to be willing to change. The goal is to still be human when you do.

[Osiris]

Yes, but everyone in the movie had a Blood pressure of 1200/800

:nik:

[Osiris]

He is my take on it.

Scratch is an evil bitch. People can toss out "You don't know her side of the story" and "She is a victim of her past" or "We don't know all the details" but it doesn't matter IMO. The facts are what they are. She tortured and murdered an innocent man at The Mall to cover her track with the tanker. She kidnapped an innocent girl and blackmailed her father with her. She had Hanna killed as well. She caused the fight with The Tower for who knows why. It was hinted she killed Dr. Jason to cover her tracks more murdering Angel. She tortured Burt. As soon as she realized that Bricks told on her she murdered him. Then she had dozens killed when The Tower fell. It was hinted she let her brother go to jail for crimes she committed. If Riley goes through with this she is stepping over a line. The difference is what she does later. Scratch got worse. She is an animal.

It is what it is.

Riley's path is following hers. "How far are you willing to go for Revenge?" We will soon see. We were made to like Riley more than Scratch. Scratch is that villain we love to hate. She is well written. I am pretty damn sure KC even wrote her this way for this reason. To show us how close these people are to becoming Scratch. What happens when you let go of the morals that makes us human.

Kulani was given a pass by me as soon as I learned about his daughter. I have two sons. A Four year old and soon to be three year old. The question isn't what I would do to save them, but what wouldn't I do. I would have willingly did all he did and more. I am sure anyone with a kid would agree. There is a double standard. It's called life. In a perfect world both Scratch and Kulani would be held to the same standard. They both did horrible stuff. Life is not perfect though. It isn't Black and White. At the end of the day the ideals of different. Scratch is evil and does thinsg for her own selfish reasons. Thus she doesn't get a pass. Kulani was a desperate man trying to get back his kid. He does.

On Morality when the world ends...

If this show has shown us anything is that Morality is what keeps us from being the Monsters. There are certain lines you can't cross. I want to say the ends justify the means, but that isn't the case. When you are willing to do anything you end up with nothing. Without some Morals you become an animal. Yes, your morals have to change. Pegs learned that. You can't cling to everything. You have to be willing to change. The goal is to still be human when you do.

Those are the facts as you see them, yes. Some of it is speculative, some is a matter of perspective.

For the record, the reason behind the war at the tower, the attacks on the Michael's group... the entire Scratch arc all hinges on one act. Burt shooting the mirror of the tanker truck in Scratch's first appearance in an attempt to assert his alpha dog status. Burt's ego got all of those people killed. Burt's actions caused Pegs to be hunted, Lizzy to be kidnapped, and almost raped, and CJ to lose her leg.

[Litmaster]

While entirely true. Does the effects of the post-apocalyptic situation not also change how you should deal with prisoners of war?(and lets face it, that's what Phillip is).

Hmmm... well, I don't think so. The common factor here is that there are two opposing sides: allied and enemy. Anything that would help your side win the conflict (whether Maller or Tower side) would be fair game in this situation.


In the current scenario, what's more important? Revenge for fallen comrades, or increasing your own survival rate?

But back on topic. Knowing what they do of him...does his insight help the group? That's a deciding factor for me...if you talk shit about me and I never hear it, it never happened..simple as that.

In this case, revenge and increasing survival rate are one on the same, assuming they can take out Scratch. Presumably Tardust has cut bait with Scratch, thus making him less of a threat, but there is no good way for Burt or Riley to verify this. For all they know, he could be lying through his teeth. The application of torture in this case is a use of force intended to get the truth from Tar-- the whole truth, and nothing but the truth... :nik:

[Litmaster]

For the record, the reason behind the war at the tower, the attacks on the Michael's group... the entire Scratch arc all hinges on one act. Burt shooting the mirror of the tanker truck in Scratch's first appearance in an attempt to assert his alpha dog status. Burt's ego got all of those people killed. Burt's actions caused Pegs to be hunted, Lizzy to be kidnapped, and almost raped, and CJ to lose her leg.

Wow. Osi's zealous devotion to Scratch has muddied his judgement to the extreme, and this post is evidence of the fact. Come on, man... you're seriously trying to pin all that on Burt?! Why don't you just blame it all on Lady, since the whole 'Burt shooting the tanker truck mirror' incident wouldn't have happened if that fucking mutt didn't have to take a leak in the first place!

[DagnyTag]

Hmmm... well, I don't think so. The common factor here is that there are two opposing sides: allied and enemy. Anything that would help your side win the conflict (whether Maller or Tower side) would be fair game in this situation.



In this case, revenge and increasing survival rate are one on the same, assuming they can take out Scratch. Presumably Tardust has cut bait with Scratch, thus making him less of a threat, but there is no good way for Burt or Riley to verify this. For all they know, he could be lying through his teeth. The application of torture in this case is a use of force intended to get the truth from Tar-- the whole truth, and nothing but the truth... :nik:

I don't think you can put all that on Burt. Scratch threatened to shoot Lizzy just because she walked toward them to say Hi. Then both Scratch and Latch wanted to trade the tanker for sexual favors from Lizzy. They provoked Burt first.

[Verse]

Those are the facts as you see them, yes. Some of it is speculative, some is a matter of perspective.

For the record, the reason behind the war at the tower, the attacks on the Michael's group... the entire Scratch arc all hinges on one act. Burt shooting the mirror of the tanker truck in Scratch's first appearance in an attempt to assert his alpha dog status. Burt's ego got all of those people killed. Burt's actions caused Pegs to be hunted, Lizzy to be kidnapped, and almost raped, and CJ to lose her leg.

We will have to agree to disagree on that. Some of that is speculative. I disagree that it is perspective. Scratch torturing Burt is not perspective outside of you wanting to make an excuse for her. Her tormenting and murdering a innocent man to cover her tracks at the tuck yards is not perspective outside of gasping straws. Doctor Jason, Brother in Jail, that was indeed hinted at but not confirmed.

As for Burt causing the fight on ego.

I disagree as well. We know that The Mallers were slavers and making plans to take out Dunbar if needed. To say Burt not backing down to Scratch is what caused everything is nuts. You can say that the Tankers were theirs and by taking them started the war... but they also stole his guns from his shop. To say "Yeah.. Those guys that are slavers... murderers... rapists... and thieves would have just left The Tower alone if Burt would not played Alpha Dog" is crazy talk. What The Mallers are is indeed fact as well. Tardust tried to rape Lizzy..They had Slaves.... CJ had a file over them killing people for supplies... and they kidnapped and innocent girl and raided Burt's Place.

Oh... and they attacked and took over The Colony first chance they got. The Colony did nothing to them. Dunbar did nothing to them, but they kidnapped (and murdered) an innocent girl to plant a mole to find a way to take them out if needed.

So I am not buying the "Burt's Ego caused this". He may have alerted them when they went to the Truck Yard, but that isn't his fault. Based on what they did to The Colony, and planning on Dunbar, it would have just been a matter of time.

[Osiris]

Wow. Osi's zealous devotion to Scratch has muddied his judgement to the extreme, and this post is evidence of the fact. Come on, man... you're seriously trying to pin all that on Burt?! Why don't you just blame it all on Lady, since the whole 'Burt shooting the tanker truck mirror' incident wouldn't have happened if that fucking mutt didn't have to take a leak in the first place!

It's a fact. If Burt hadn't whipped his dick out, and tried to be a bigger man than a girl--which says all kinds of shit about what type of guy Burt really is--things could have gone in a very, very different direction. There's no muddy judgement, no twisted logic, only simple facts easily proven. Disagree? Go to the tape, and re-listen to Burt fire the first shot, the shot that started the war.

[7oddisdead]

I don't want to get into the who started what argument, cause honestly I don't care. But there's no denying that incident, and those two people are what started all the conflict(person to person). Ego and determination facing off. Simple as that. Assign blame to whomever you want...

[Osiris]

Now you're just plain high if you think that guy in the yard was innocent. You said so yourself, "murderers... rapists... and thieves." As for enslavement? Who was in charge at the Mall? I forget....

[Osiris]

I don't want to get into the who started what argument, cause honestly I don't care. But there's no denying that incident, and those two people are what started all the conflict(person to person). Ego and determination facing off. Simple as that. Assign blame to whomever you want...

In that case, I'm blaming Blaire. It's all her fault.

[DagnyTag]

What if Scratch really did attack one of the convoys but had a gun to the head of whoever responded to Kelly over the radio. At least some people who were at the colony knew that Pegs was staying behind at Dunbar with Michael and the rest of the tower gang. Scratch could get that information out of them as well as where Dunbar is located.

[TacticalJHP]

None of that was personal for scratch in the beginning.

By the point she even met burt, she had broken into Burt's shop and raided it for weapons, broke her brother and other prisoners out of jail, Set up a fortress at the mall filled with slaves, Captured Pippin, Koloni, and his daughter and used them to spy on Dunbar, and seized a fuel tanker refinery.

At that point she was still following Durai's plan and not going for vengeance, and his plan was for tankers. If she lost one, it was her ass.

Saul, Lizzy, and Burt was taking one. They were expected to stop them. They did, then demanded sex from Lizzy in exchange for the tanker. They all agree no deal, and Burt shoots the tanker mirror to get Latch and Scratch to go away. There were no pissing contests.

Saul finds the Mallers, and then pissed Durai off because he wanted all the tankers. The only reason she knew where the tower was is because Saul followed them on a scooter and then they followed him to find the tower. Durai wanted the tower. Thus started the war.

The war lead to Latch's death at the hands of Pegs in order to defend her man. It is only by some miracle that Scratch even saw it was Pegs who shot, or that Pegs still lived, or that Scratch lived. (or that's good writing)

This sets off the personal vendetta that scratch cannot let go. She has to hide the vendetta while under Durai's orders like
1 setting up the bait-and-switch with Kolaini's daughter
2 Bombing the hell out of the arena
3 Attacking the tower a second time
4 Taking over the colony
5 Running the slaves


All while....

1 keeping lizzy from being raped
2 Keeping lizzy captive
3 burying latch
4 finding Pegs
5 Finding Angel and keeping him alive
6 Finding burt and keeping him captive
7 Taking care of Lizzy's pre-natal needs
8 Burt Torture
9 Murdering Angel
10 Assassination of Durai
11 running for her life from the colony
12 running from B&R while still stalking pegs for MONTHS.


Scratch is crazy for life.

Riley might get violent for a little while, and cross the line. Crossing the line does not put you even near someone who is crazy for life. Especially if you choose not to stay on that side of the line. Will she? Tine in in two weeks...

[Osiris]

Close. Very close.

[LiamKerrington]

Funny, it's only an act of desperation if you have the complete context. If you preclude knowledge of Kalani's daughter, it comes across in a very different light--even though he's still trying in desperation to save her life. Context is everything. We don't have all of the context surrounding Scratch. We have snippets, and throw-away lines about her past. Because we have the information to do so, we put Kalani, Riley, and eventually Saul's actions into context which won't vilify them. It'll make them sympathetic.

Well, in all honesty: it makes them pathetic to a certain degree. I only understand them, because people react to certain situations very different. I really hated Saul for his wild heart for quite a while; the cold-blooded murder of Pippin performed by Kalani still freaks me out; and about Riley I am steal very concerned and hope that she does not follow that dark road.
As for Scratch: We received three basic and important background information on her: she was a victim of violence and tragedy, and she deserves all my sorrow and grief for what happened back then; she did everything to get her brother out of prison; and her main agenda is to take revenge on the one person that took his brother's life and thus took away the last "warm feelings" from Scratch. As with Kalani, Saul, and Riley: I do understand.
In both cases I am not willing to go any further. There is no reason to justify or excuse things; maybe some of these things may seve as explanations, but nothing more than that.

Besides: If you are willing to neglect Scratch's "evilness" because of her dark and shadowy past thus putting everything about her into context, why wouldn't you accept the context of Kalani's story? Isn't this kind of a double-standardization as well? That struck my mind last night ...

Best wishes!
Liam

[LiamKerrington]

We all know that Burt and Riley are looking for Scratch. However, has anyone put much thought into the end game? What happens when they find her? Tell her off? Steal her panties and run them up a flag pole? Shove her into the mud? Roll up their sleeves, make a fist and say, "Why I outta!"?, Wedgies and titty twisters?

Good wuestion. I have not thought about it yet. But from the beginning I thought of it as being simply wrong. They are and about in a depoulated world where the most important thing is survival. Sticking to a plan of "revenge", and that is as - I understand it - the sole motivation behind this hunting and searching, is kind of stupid. No, not, kind of ... VERY stupid. Maybe it is just the logical consequence when Riley finally ticks out and goes all Guantanamo on Tardust ...

[Osiris]

Well, in all honesty: it makes them pathetic to a certain degree. I only understand them, because people react to certain situations very different. I really hated Saul for his wild heart for quite a while; the cold-blooded murder of Pippin performed by Kalani still freaks me out; and about Riley I am steal very concerned and hope that she does not follow that dark road.
As for Scratch: We received three basic and important background information on her: she was a victim of violence and tragedy, and she deserves all my sorrow and grief for what happened back then; she did everything to get her brother out of prison; and her main agenda is to take revenge on the one person that took his brother's life and thus took away the last "warm feelings" from Scratch. As with Kalani, Saul, and Riley: I do understand.
In both cases I am not willing to go any further. There is no reason to justify or excuse things; maybe some of these things may seve as explanations, but nothing more than that.

Besides: If you are willing to neglect Scratch's "evilness" because of her dark and shadowy past thus putting everything about her into context, why wouldn't you accept the context of Kalani's story? Isn't this kind of a double-standardization as well? That struck my mind last night ...

Best wishes!
Liam

I'm not trying to excuse her actions, I'm merely drawing attention to the fact that our perspective is skewed. It's just how the story is being told. Sure, she's done some bad shit, but nobody in the story is innocent or without something shady or sinister in their past. We still don't know the extent of Angel's involvement with Scratch, and likely never will. Kalani killed a man in cold-blood. Pegs murdered a man in cold-blood. How many died during the attack on the tower on Scratch's side? Let me remind you, many of them were "slaves" and not there by choice. So then we get into an argument for guilt by association, and away we go again.

I'm actually a big fan of Kalani (loved hearing Kevin Flood's voice), and I had absolutely no trouble accepting his story. It made sense. I never felt as though the way he acted was at all wrong. I would have done the same in his position without guilt. I don't know if I would have flown the chopper into the tower, but...

My only point in all this is:

Burt and Riley are at the top of a slippery slope, and it won't take much to put them (especially Riley) in the same category as Scratch. They're both out for vengeance.

[LiamKerrington]

Those are the facts as you see them, yes. Some of it is speculative, some is a matter of perspective.

For the record, the reason behind the war at the tower, the attacks on the Michael's group... the entire Scratch arc all hinges on one act. Burt shooting the mirror of the tanker truck in Scratch's first appearance in an attempt to assert his alpha dog status. Burt's ego got all of those people killed. Burt's actions caused Pegs to be hunted, Lizzy to be kidnapped, and almost raped, and CJ to lose her leg.

I am not so certain about this.
(1) I wonder why Scratch would be so freaked out to react so childish to the dismissive behaviour of a total stranger (Burt).
(2) Also the whole Tower-thing was heavily fueled by the actions of Kalani. I really wonder how much the war or something along that line would have happened, if the whole Kalani arc was not involved. Before Kalani the Mallers' attention was on Dunbar, actually, although the Towerites had "stolen" the tanker-rig ...

Best wishes!
Liam

[LiamKerrington]

I'm not trying to excuse her actions, I'm merely drawing attention to the fact that our perspective is skewed. It's just how the story is being told. Sure, she's done some bad shit, but nobody in the story is innocent or without something shady or sinister in their past. We still don't know the extent of Angel's involvement with Scratch, and likely never will. Kalani killed a man in cold-blood. Pegs murdered a man in cold-blood. How many died during the attack on the tower on Scratch's side? Let me remind you, many of them were "slaves" and not there by choice. So then we get into an argument for guilt by association, and away we go again.

I'm actually a big fan of Kalani (loved hearing Kevin Flood's voice), and I had absolutely no trouble accepting his story. It made sense. I never felt as though the way he acted was at all wrong. I would have done the same in his position without guilt. I don't know if I would have flown the chopper into the tower, but...

My only point in all this is:

Burt and Riley are at the top of a slippery slope, and it won't take much to put them (especially Riley) in the same category as Scratch. They're both out for vengeance.


Pegs did not shoot in cold-blood. She was desperate and near panicking, and in my understanding she was not knowing what she would do.
The fallen slaves and Mallers at the Tower have fallen, because after all it was Durai's and/or Scratch's decision to force them into a battle, where the Tower-folks would simply defend themselves.

Burt and Riley: 100% d'accord.

[Osiris]

I am not so certain about this.
(1) I wonder why Scratch would be so freaked out to react so childish to the dismissive behaviour of a total stranger (Burt).
(2) Also the whole Tower-thing was heavily fueled by the actions of Kalani. I really wonder how much the war or something along that line would have happened, if the whole Kalani arc was not involved. Before Kalani the Mallers' attention was on Dunbar, actually, although the Towerites had "stolen" the tanker-rig ...

Best wishes!
Liam

Scratch reacts to Burt's language, and posturing. There's nothing childish about it. Again, it's a pissing contest. You have two personalities that clash, and both desperately need to come out on top.


Pegs did not shoot in cold-blood. She was desperate and near panicking, and in my understanding she was not knowing what she would do.
The fallen slaves and Mallers at the Tower have fallen, because after all it was Durai's and/or Scratch's decision to force them into a battle, where the Tower-folks would simply defend themselves.

Burt and Riley: 100% d'accord.

I disagree. Pegs didn't have to shoot. There's any number of ways she could have handled that situation. She made the choice to kill, unfortunately, she killed someone who was loved deeply, and as we've seen throughout the show: if you kill a loved one, expect to answer for it.

[REZombie]

I havn't read all the post, but i'm not upset with Riley.... Its a tough world in Zombie Acres, and Tardust is not one i would want to stick around....So a little light torture for info, probably more psychological then actual "torture", see what comes out and then a bullet to the head.... but hey, i lean more toward my survival and the ones around me...dont really like loose ends laying around.


Not sure whats gonna happen next episode....i believe Tardust actually, but i'd still kill him. I do think Scratch is knows whats going on with him though, i just dont think he knows it.

[Gooer]

Can't keep up with all these posts, you all say so much......

[Gooer]

Those are the facts as you see them, yes. Some of it is speculative, some is a matter of perspective.

For the record, the reason behind the war at the tower, the attacks on the Michael's group... the entire Scratch arc all hinges on one act. Burt shooting the mirror of the tanker truck in Scratch's first appearance in an attempt to assert his alpha dog status. Burt's ego got all of those people killed. Burt's actions caused Pegs to be hunted, Lizzy to be kidnapped, and almost raped, and CJ to lose her leg.

But, surely it is Durai's fault, as it was his idea to attack the tower, after Scratch told him it existed, not due to Burt shooting the mirror of the tanker. Either way, Scratch and Latch followed them, so they would of stumbled onto the tower anyway, even if Saul, Lizzy and Burt hadn't stopped, leading them to tell Durai about it being occupied. It was his decision to attack the tower, which lead to the events of Latch's death, the tower burning, the zombies coming and attacking the tower, the second attack on the tower, etc......

P.S. Sorry if it's been covered, too many pages to go through...

[7oddisdead]

not nearly enough pages bro. we will beat this dead horse! dammit!

[Footbutt]

all this talk on torture but i won't be surprised if Riley never even gets to it. something like a call over the previously-though-defunct radio or even a well-placed cutaway will leave all of these forum speculations in the dust!

Tardust seems like the guy that would break at the drop of the hat. did you not hear the genuine panic in his voice when he was awakened by Burt and Riley?

the end result: one more dead maller; no leads.

[LiamKerrington]

Scratch reacts to Burt's language, and posturing. There's nothing childish about it. Again, it's a pissing contest. You have two personalities that clash, and both desperately need to come out on top.

Well, then don't forget that it was Scratch who started to get some heat into the situation; when Latch and Saul started to bargain and Lizzy wanted to join, Scratch barked a threat, which then started and fueled the mutual hatred between her and Burt. Also: Since there are two pigheads, the whole escalation is the result of the actions and reactions of both. Scratch, too, especially with knowing that she had no ammo at her hand, could have backed off, licked her "emotional wounds" and could have simply ignored what has happened. But she didn't - instead she decided to tell her mirror-image that she would have more mighty balls than anyone else, especially Burt. That's kind of f*cked up ...


I disagree. Pegs didn't have to shoot. There's any number of ways she could have handled that situation. She made the choice to kill, unfortunately, she killed someone who was loved deeply, and as we've seen throughout the show: if you kill a loved one, expect to answer for it.

Too bad that this is true for almost any dead one killed by other human beings.
Pegs did not shoot to kill LAtch; she shot at a Maller appearing in a window, because she was frightened to death and because she was cornered; she pulled the trigger several times, and she probably expected someone to die, but this was not her intention. I take it that Pegs hoped to only wound him and make him flee, because she herself did not want to be shot or at least captured. And all this happened during an attempt of the Mallers to attack, raid, maybe take over the Tower. Ok, Pegs could have acted differently: She could have set up a pot of tea, some biscuits and hope that she would play some turns of Romé with a Maller, because that is why the Mallers only attacked - they wanted to play, and poor Pegs got it all wrong., over-reacted and cold-bloodedly killed a Maller ... Yeah, right ...

Speaking of the attack: Considering the whole picture the Tower was attacked because of the "rat's behaviour", aka Kalani's efforts of betrayal. But one must not forget who started it all: Scratch made him act like he did. He informed the Mallers, the Mallers considered an attack, Scratch ordered Kalani to start the shooting in order to fake a counter-attack, and in the combat that took place her brother was shot. So actually Scratch has to take some huge pile of responsibility for the death of her own brother. She is to blame, and not Pegs actually defending herself.

Best wishes!
Liam

[Cabbage Patch]

...Maybe it is just the logical consequence when Riley finally ticks out and goes all Guantanamo on Tardust ...

This is a huge relief! I was afraid that we were on the verge of losing our beloved Riley to the Dark Side. But if Tardust is facing "Guantanamo" treatment he can look forward to decent living conditions, scrupulous observance of his personal beliefs, and occassional bouts of mildly insistent, but strictly controlled questioning.

[Footbutt]

This is a huge relief! I was afraid that we were on the verge of losing our beloved Riley to the Dark Side. But if Tardust is facing "Guantanamo" treatment he can look forward to decent living conditions, scrupulous observance of his personal beliefs, and occassional bouts of mildly insistent, but strictly controlled questioning.

...and treadmills made in the USA!

[LiamKerrington]

Well, yeah ... I guess you caught me with my trousers down. I was referring to the not so sweet and prejudiced stories about Guantanamo ... Am guilty as charged ... I guess news here in Europe have a...

[Verse]

I meant innocent of the crime he was accused of. That is my fault for making that clear. She accussed him of sleeping on the job and letting a tanker get stolen on his shift and not hers. So he was...

[Osiris]

not nearly enough pages bro. we will beat this dead horse! dammit!

Hush, fucker. I'll deal with you later.

[Osiris]

Well, then don't forget that it was Scratch who started to get some heat into the situation; when Latch and Saul started to bargain and Lizzy wanted to join, Scratch barked a threat, which then started and fueled the mutual hatred between her and Burt. Also: Since there are two pigheads, the whole escalation is the result of the actions and reactions of both. Scratch, too, especially with knowing that she had no ammo at her hand, could have backed off, licked her "emotional wounds" and could have simply ignored what has happened. But she didn't - instead she decided to tell her mirror-image that she would have more mighty balls than anyone else, especially Burt. That's kind of f*cked up ...



Too bad that this is true for almost any dead one killed by other human beings.
Pegs did not shoot to kill LAtch; she shot at a Maller appearing in a window, because she was frightened to death and because she was cornered; she pulled the trigger several times, and she probably expected someone to die, but this was not her intention. I take it that Pegs hoped to only wound him and make him flee, because she herself did not want to be shot or at least captured. And all this happened during an attempt of the Mallers to attack, raid, maybe take over the Tower. Ok, Pegs could have acted differently: She could have set up a pot of tea, some biscuits and hope that she would play some turns of Romé with a Maller, because that is why the Mallers only attacked - they wanted to play, and poor Pegs got it all wrong., over-reacted and cold-bloodedly killed a Maller ... Yeah, right ...

Speaking of the attack: Considering the whole picture the Tower was attacked because of the "rat's behaviour", aka Kalani's efforts of betrayal. But one must not forget who started it all: Scratch made him act like he did. He informed the Mallers, the Mallers considered an attack, Scratch ordered Kalani to start the shooting in order to fake a counter-attack, and in the combat that took place her brother was shot. So actually Scratch has to take some huge pile of responsibility for the death of her own brother. She is to blame, and not Pegs actually defending herself.

Best wishes!
Liam

And we're back to inferring intent... see how shitty and circular this argument is? Lizzy should never had thrown her hat into the ring, and Scratch never would have taken it as an act of aggression, and things would have ended differently. Burt could have simply shut his mouth, and put his own ego aside, and backed down... but he didn't. You're putting a lot of emphasis on what isn't on the tape, while being entirely dismissive of what is.

As for the rat attack... Scratch was under Durai's command. That's all there is to it. She may have acted as his commander on the field, but he was the one pulling the strings. It was his hunt for power. Now it's all Scratch's hunt to avenge a loved one. Wait, that's Riley.

[Osiris]

I meant innocent of the crime he was accused of. That is my fault for making that clear. She accussed him of sleeping on the job and letting a tanker get stolen on his shift and not hers. So he was innocent in that regards. He was beat until he 'admitted' the crime. He was cut as well and threatened to be left alive outside until he confessed to a crime he didn't commit. Then when he did she shot and killed him.

It's not that I refuse to believe in any other perception. I don't think Burt is innocent and he very well did get into a pissing contest with her. I just don't think that is the cause of everything. If you take out all the other stuff... then yes. You would be right. When you add in what else we know, her forcing Kulani to be a rat via kidnapping, Having Kulani shot at Durai to start the fight, killing a man to cover her tracks and placing blame on him.... then it looks bad on her part.

I personally think it was Durai. As far as we know he was not aware of the history between Burt and Scratch. That he only became aware of the The Tower when they followed Saul back.

I would agree with that to a point. I think Durai's hand in all of this is too often glossed over simply because Scratch is the more attractive villain. You can look at the negotiation scene, and clearly hear exactly what incident heightens tensions on both sides. Lizzy had no reason to get involved. It's a dead horse (fuck you, Todd, I'll talk about it whenever I want), I know, but it has always been a sticking point for me that, on the whole, tower residents actions have been considered just, and necessary to survive. They've almost always been considered (again, broad generalization, so don't jump on my tits about it) to be acts of defence or simply matters of survival. They've been accepted. It was okay for Burt to whip his dick out. It was okay for Pegs to shoot and kill. It was okay for CJ to spy, and gather information on anyone and everyone because in the end it proves a benefit. It was okay for bitten to be allowed to turn for study.

What makes me curious is how people will react if Riley does (which seems likely) torture Tardust into giving up information--something Scratch did--in order to find her white whale. If... IF she manages to kill Scratch, to avenge Angel (who turned out to be a part of her extended family, and likely a criminal) is the celebration for the fact that Scratch dies, or that Riley succeeds in her quest? Why wouldn't we applaud Scratch when she finally catches up with Pegs, and puts her down for killing her brother? That's really what bothers me most about it. We're okay with one, but not the other, even though they are the same act for the same reason.

[LiamKerrington]

You're putting a lot of emphasis on what isn't on the tape, while being entirely dismissive of what is.

Something tells me that this is true for you, too. As you say: we keep circling.
As it turns out you speak in favor of Scratch without considering all the things she could have swallowed instead of going full throttle and heads on into more and more complications. Instead of taking my "arguments" or "opinions", you simply address me by telling me how stupid I am, because I argue based on "intents" or assumptions or whatever. Everything I tell you is based on face value from the WA show and the conclusions I draw out of them; and I put a lot of effort explaining things. And as soon as I get more and more details from the show which in my opinion support my way of thinking, you simply tell me how wrong I am without offering any kind of proof how Scratch would be different from what I say. Instead you simply ignore all the incriminating information that sheds a bad light on Scratch and tell me how wrong I am - and this is especially true when you simplify the war-situation and simply neglect all the influence Scratch has performed to get it rolling.
Sorry - I am tired of this game. I think I made my point. If it comes to Scratch we remain the same ever since we started discussing about it a year ago. And this will remain forever, I guess. So I back done. But that does not mean I give in.

Anyway: Thank you - this argument was rich and something I have missed for quite some time on this forum.

Best wishes!
Liam

[Osiris]

Something tells me that this is true for you, too. As you say: we keep circling.
As it turns out you speak in favor of Scratch without considering all the things she could have swallowed instead of going full throttle and heads on into more and more complications. Instead of taking my "arguments" or "opinions", you simply address me by telling me how stupid I am, because I argue based on "intents" or assumptions or whatever. Everything I tell you is based on face value from the WA show and the conclusions I draw out of them; and I put a lot of effort explaining things. And as soon as I get more and more details from the show which in my opinion support my way of thinking, you simply tell me how wrong I am without offering any kind of proof how Scratch would be different from what I say. Instead you simply ignore all the incriminating information that sheds a bad light on Scratch and tell me how wrong I am - and this is especially true when you simplify the war-situation and simply neglect all the influence Scratch has performed to get it rolling.
Sorry - I am tired of this game. I think I made my point. If it comes to Scratch we remain the same ever since we started discussing about it a year ago. And this will remain forever, I guess. So I back done. But that does not mean I give in.

Anyway: Thank you - this argument was rich and something I have missed for quite some time on this forum.

Best wishes!
Liam

I never said you were stupid. I'm saying my perspective doesn't paint ANY of the characters in a favourable light. Your Pegs argument was based entirely on what you perceive her intent to be:


Pegs (http://www.zombiepodcast.com/forum/showwiki.php?title=Pegs) did not shoot to kill LAtch; she shot at a Maller appearing in a window, because she was frightened to death and because she was cornered; she pulled the trigger several times, and she probably expected someone to die, but this was not her intention. I take it that Pegs hoped to only wound him and make him flee...

That's a perception, and an assumption of her intent. How does saying that become me calling you stupid? That's me saying you are basing part of your argument on your own perception of what you believe the characters motivations are.

Chill, Winston. Nobody is calling you stupid.

[LiamKerrington]

I never said you were stupid. I'm saying my perspective doesn't paint ANY of the characters in a favourable light. Your Pegs argument was based entirely on what you perceive her intent to be:



That's a perception, and an assumption of her intent. How does saying that become me calling you stupid? That's me saying you are basing part of your argument on your own perception of what you believe the characters motivations are.

Chill, Winston. Nobody is calling you stupid.


You are wrong. I don't base my opinions based on favorable or non-favorable lights. First I take the facts from the show, and then I draw my conclusions and establish my opinions. So the "favorable light" is not my starting point - as you seem to assume - , but the very result of listening, analyzing, understanding, concluding ... It is obvious that both of us have a very different approach towards this. And I have some trouble believing you, when you say that your persepctive doesn't pay any of the characters in a favourable light. All your efforts regarding Scratch contradict you.
This leads nowhere. And since we are very far off #45-3 already I don't see any point into getting into a new discussion about how who perceives and understands the WA show and/or WA characters.
You did not call me stupid, right. But you let me feel like being such a guy. I am out and about - now for real.

Best wishes!
Liam

[Osiris]

You are wrong. I don't base my opinions based on favorable or non-favorable lights. First I take the facts from the show, and then I draw my conclusions and establish my opinions. So the "favorable light" is not my starting point - as you seem to assume - , but the very result of listening, analyzing, understanding, concluding ... It is obvious that both of us have a very different approach towards this. And I have some trouble believing you, when you say that your persepctive doesn't pay any of the characters in a favourable light. All your efforts regarding Scratch contradict you.
This leads nowhere. And since we are very far off #45-3 already I don't see any point into getting into a new discussion about how who perceives and understands the WA show and/or WA characters.
You did not call me stupid, right. But you let me feel like being such a guy. I am out and about - now for real.

Best wishes!
Liam

We're talking about Riley using torture versus Scratch using torture. Perceived evils. Motivations for characters. You're arguing something I'm not. Can't have a discussion without you telling me I'm wrong about everything because one character is clearly more evil than another. That's a stupid approach to a conversation. I'm saying they're the same act. You're saying something completely irrelevant, and seem butthurt that I'm not just saying, "Oh, lord you are totally right!" Your own words state that you are assuming character intent based on how you perceive their actions throughout the story. How is that incorrect? They are YOUR OWN WORDS. I didn't put them in your mouth.

[Witch_Doctor]

I'm not even sure where to jump in.

[7oddisdead]

http://www.google.com/search?q=gentlemen's+duel&=client%3Dms-nokia-wp&hl=en&sa=X&as_q=&spell=1&ei=O6RqU5TcA4vyyAHn5oC4DQ&ved=0CAoQBSgA

[Osiris]

I'm not even sure where to jump in.

Start by answering the question:

How far is too far? What is are acceptable losses when you're out to avenge someone you loved? The reason I brought up Scratch is simple enough, Riley is falling down the same rabbit hole of madness. Whether she's redeemable, or righteous is a matter of perspective, and shouldn't come into play when making the decision. At what point did the lines disappear?

[Osiris]

http://www.google.com/search?q=gentlemen's+duel&=client%3Dms-nokia-wp&hl=en&sa=X&as_q=&spell=1&ei=O6RqU5TcA4vyyAHn5oC4DQ&ved=0CAoQBSgA

You're the worst with technology.

[Zombiekiller100]

I'm not even sure where to jump in.

Looks like the pro and anti- Scratch fans have taken too much Follistatin, Somatotropin or maybe Testosterone! Enjoyed the debate from both sides, but Scratch is totally responsible for her actions ( she has free will ) and will have to face the consequences ( Newton's third law of physics ) or whatever else Kc has planned for her. We won't have long to wait.

[TacticalJHP]

Well, in all honesty: it makes them pathetic to a certain degree. I only understand them, because people react to certain situations very different. I really hated Saul for his wild heart for quite a while; the cold-blooded murder of Pippin performed by Kalani still freaks me out; and about Riley I am steal very concerned and hope that she does not follow that dark road.
As for Scratch: We received three basic and important background information on her: she was a victim of violence and tragedy, and she deserves all my sorrow and grief for what happened back then; she did everything to get her brother out of prison; and her main agenda is to take revenge on the one person that took his brother's life and thus took away the last "warm feelings" from Scratch. As with Kalani, Saul, and Riley: I do understand.
In both cases I am not willing to go any further. There is no reason to justify or excuse things; maybe some of these things may seve as explanations, but nothing more than that.

Besides: If you are willing to neglect Scratch's "evilness" because of her dark and shadowy past thus putting everything about her into context, why wouldn't you accept the context of Kalani's story? Isn't this kind of a double-standardization as well? That struck my mind last night ...

Best wishes!
Liam

So, what you are saying is "Excuses are like assholes. Everyone has one."


I havn't read all the post, but i'm not upset with Riley.... Its a tough world in Zombie Acres, and Tardust is not one i would want to stick around....So a little light torture for info, probably more psychological then actual "torture", see what comes out and then a bullet to the head.... but hey, i lean more toward my survival and the ones around me...dont really like loose ends laying around.


Not sure whats gonna happen next episode....i believe Tardust actually, but i'd still kill him. I do think Scratch is knows whats going on with him though, i just dont think he knows it.

I like the way you think.




Start by answering the question:

How far is too far? What is are acceptable losses when you're out to avenge someone you loved? The reason I brought up Scratch is simple enough, Riley is falling down the same rabbit hole of madness. Whether she's redeemable, or righteous is a matter of perspective, and shouldn't come into play when making the decision. At what point did the lines disappear?

"Lines" and "Boundaries" are things not seen in the moment, but things to be debated the day after by the armchair quarterbacks.

[Osiris]

So, what you are saying is "Excuses are like assholes. Everyone has one."



I like the way you think.





"Lines" and "Boundaries" are things not seen in the moment, but things to be debated the day after by the armchair quarterbacks.

So are you just going to take your ball, and go home, bro?

[TacticalJHP]

So are you just going to take your ball, and go home, bro?

I don't know how you got that from my post.

[Osiris]

I don't know how you got that from my post.


"Lines" and "Boundaries" are things not seen in the moment, but things to be debated the day after by the armchair quarterbacks.

Was that your honest, thoughful answer, or your sarcasm?

[Litmaster]

I meant innocent of the crime he was accused of. That is my fault for making that clear. She accussed him of sleeping on the job and letting a tanker get stolen on his shift and not hers. So he was innocent in that regards. He was beat until he 'admitted' the crime. He was cut as well and threatened to be left alive outside until he confessed to a crime he didn't commit. Then when he did she shot and killed him.

No, it was Latch that actually shot him, remember? Scratch complained that he wasted a bullet. But the rest of your facts are valid. :nik:

[TacticalJHP]

That was my reply to your post about "How far is too far?" and "At what point did the lines disappear?" I was pointing out that those are things that only exist in the day after, something that most people in extreme situations (especially in the WA universe) do not see.

[Litmaster]

And we're back to inferring intent... see how shitty and circular this argument is? Lizzy should never had thrown her hat into the ring, and Scratch never would have taken it as an act of aggression, and things would have ended differently. Burt could have simply shut his mouth, and put his own ego aside, and backed down... but he didn't. You're putting a lot of emphasis on what isn't on the tape, while being entirely dismissive of what is.

Osi, you are so entirely full of shit it's amazing it isn't squirting out of your ears. :nik: All Lizzy did was approach to negotiate, and your beloved Scratch came out with "Back up! Back up now! Back up, bitch! Or I'll shoot!" Those were her very first words in the story. Fact, not opinion. :nik:

The fact is, SCRATCH was the first one to show aggression, not Lizzy, Burt, or Saul. If anyone 'fired the first shot', it was her. You can continue to defend her as much as you want, but it only makes you look like more of a lunatic...

[Osiris]

Osi, you are so entirely full of shit it's amazing it isn't squirting out of your ears. :nik: All Lizzy did was approach to negotiate, and your beloved Scratch came out with "Back up! Back up now! Back up, bitch! Or I'll shoot!" Those were her very first words in the story. Fact, not opinion. :nik:

The fact is, SCRATCH was the first one to show aggression, not Lizzy, Burt, or Saul. If anyone 'fired the first shot', it was her. You can continue to defend her as much as you want, but it only makes you look like more of a lunatic...

You're fucking high, clearly. Fact is Lizzy had NO business stepping in to do anything.

You should re-listen to that episode. Pay attention to Burt's laughter when he says "we've got them out-gunned." He was already preparing to take a dominant stance. Latch and Scratch don't make any threatening moves until Lizzy decides to approach.

"She moved on us. How can we trust her."

Saul even says, straight up, Burt would have reacted the same when they found him if he hadn't been unconscious. Burt agreed. THIS IS IN THE EPISODE. So even the characters in the show agree that I'm correct in this. Burt's flippant and arrogant behaviour, and the threatening.

Go back and listen to the episode, and listen to the way he talks to her. He calls her ugly, calls her a cunt, threatens to shoot her, all because she's enforcing her claim on their property. I'm listening to the scene as I type this. I'm telling you, beyond any shadow of a doubt, you are wrong.

But don't let the audio available to you cloud your judgement, brotato. Continue on as you were.

[7oddisdead]

so...why do I feel the need to tell the two dudes who are supposed to be "leaders" on the forum to chill the fuck out? for reals:nik:

this was fun for a bit...but its devolving into a pissing match.

and for the record, I side mostly with osi. (hear that buddy?) but fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck me, this argument will never see any resolve...let it go.

[Osiris]

so...why do I feel the need to tell the two dudes who are supposed to be "leaders" on the forum to chill the fuck out? for reals:nik:

this was fun for a bit...but its devolving into a pissing match.

and for the record, I side mostly with osi. (hear that buddy?) but fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck me, this argument will never see any resolve...let it go.

All I do is pose a simple question, and suddenly:

http://i.imgur.com/d32Z8sl.jpg

[7oddisdead]

I look at it like this. being an avid reader of "grim/dark" type fantasy, the focus is generally on the perceived bad guys. by the end of the story, you find yourself rooting for the bad guy to get his revenge by the end....flip that tale around, and you have?///???? yup...scratch.

perception is key. that I can agree with.

and in our current scenario with tardust, yea...hes done a buttload of bad shit. but, in his moment of saying "screw this, maybe I can at least live...maybe if they find scratch, take her out....then, then I just have to find a way to slip out and im gone...no more worries" but...now he finds hes in the hands of those he helped break. in my eyes, regardless of his past, this makes him a sympathetic character(in this moment at least).

[Storm]

and for the record, I side mostly with osi. (hear that buddy?) but fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck me, this argument will never see any resolve...let it go.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=moSFlvxnbgk

[Osiris]

I look at it like this. being an avid reader of "grim/dark" type fantasy, the focus is generally on the perceived bad guys. by the end of the story, you find yourself rooting for the bad guy to get his revenge by the end....flip that tale around, and you have?///???? yup...scratch.

perception is key. that I can agree with.

and in our current scenario with tardust, yea...hes done a buttload of bad shit. but, in his moment of saying "screw this, maybe I can at least live...maybe if they find scratch, take her out....then, then I just have to find a way to slip out and im gone...no more worries" but...now he finds hes in the hands of those he helped break. in my eyes, regardless of his past, this makes him a sympathetic character(in this moment at least).

I don't think I can ever see Tardust as being sympathetic. I don't really care one way or the other if he lives or dies through the next few episodes. I think he's the least interesting character in the story, and nothing more than a plot device used to force a choice within a more important character. The most interesting part of the last episode is the conflict between Riley and Burt, albeit minimal.

[7oddisdead]

jus' makin a point, bro.

his maller name could have easily been "plot device", that's entirely true. the point being, in the moment riley steps back into the room shouting.. who is the sympathetic character? most peoples perception leans towards riley, but certain people (myself included) felt for the situation tar is in. that has little to do with liking the character, finding him interesting, etc. its more how you perceive the situation and the characters involved.. now that I really think about it, this entire scene is probably more about burt than either of these two characters, or at least it should be. perhaps his conflict with being on the other end of the torture should have been a bit more pronounced. not sure if that's on scott, or kc. (insert blaire blame here)

[Grognaurd]

I have sympathy for Scratch, but I don't see any hope for her redemption. Leaving aside Burt, and the murder of various Mallers, the worst things on Scratch's slate are the ones that were only hinted at. The treatment of the Maller's "slaves". What happened to the Colonists under Maller rule. The short, and probably horrific life of Kalani's daughter, Hannah, from the time she was captured to the day she was executed to provide a "distraction".

Definitely a sociopath.

It is important to remember that even before the Zompacalypse, Scratch had done enough "evil" for her brother to believe she would be on death row if he had not taken the wrap for the crime. Further, Latch was held in a Federal prison. Federal death row is on par with Timothy McVeigh and the Oklahoma City bombing. Pretty heavy stuff. Pretty evil, unless there is some major plot device twist that she blew up a secret Raydon Labs manufacturing facility that postponed the outbreak a few years...

Maybe I did not run out of :tinfoil: after all. But, this one is a full body suit...

[Grognaurd]

Wow, just wow. Scratch seems to be responsible for the tankers. She lost one and has to scramble to get it back. She tries to intimidate Burt etal. This fails. Do not blame this on Burt. He shoots the mirror. That defuses the situation. Period. He could have just as easily shot Scratch! He could do so before she has time to react. Mean while, Latch had put his gun down and was talking to Saul. Hell, even if Latch had a gun, Burt could kill both before they could react.

[Litmaster]

so...why do I feel the need to tell the two dudes who are supposed to be "leaders" on the forum to chill the fuck out? for reals:nik:

this was fun for a bit...but its devolving into a pissing match.

What? Pissing match?! I was just having fun! We rarely ever have the opportunity to get in a good old argument on this forum, I was just seizing the opportunity. :nik: I'm not upset in the slightest.

I'm actually quite entertained by Osiris's slavish devotion to his girl.

And Osi, just to show you I'm not a total stubborn ass, I will go back and re-listen to that episode. If you are correct, I'll give you due credit.

[LiamKerrington]

We're talking about Riley using torture versus Scratch using torture. Perceived evils. Motivations for characters. You're arguing something I'm not. Can't have a discussion without you telling me I'm wrong about everything because one character is clearly more evil than another. That's a stupid approach to a conversation. I'm saying they're the same act. You're saying something completely irrelevant, and seem butthurt that I'm not just saying, "Oh, lord you are totally right!" Your own words state that you are assuming character intent based on how you perceive their actions throughout the story. How is that incorrect? They are YOUR OWN WORDS. I didn't put them in your mouth.

Just for the record: At no point I spoke in favor of Riley torturing Tardust. Obviously our mud-wrestling about Scratch and Kalani has made you miss this very specific point. I am sorry; my walls of words must have blurred this very important "fact" about my opinion on things.
To be crystal clear: I don't appreciate, like, enjoy, look forward to it that Riley might or will torture Tardust or whomever. The opposite is true, because I see no justification or excuse or exculpation for torture - no matter how dark this story may be. And I also don't see how the bitterness, revenge, self-pitty of Riley or anyone could be considered as solid and valid motivations to act like that.* I would not want to relate this (too likely) failing of Riley to the failings of Scratch, because either way: failings are wrong.
edit: Aside from that: I started this argument because I did not feel comfortable with being treated like "all" WA fans willing to accept Riley torturing Tardust, because I think besides me there are some (many) other WA fans raising doubts about such an action. But this, too, was drowned in this long, rich, challenging discussion. /edit

Best wishes!
Liam

*
- I implied it here: http://www.zombiepodcast.com/forum/showthread.php?5348-Chapter-45-3-Distorted-Truths&p=76306#post76306
- I would regret her torturing Tardust here: http://www.zombiepodcast.com/forum/showthread.php?5348-Chapter-45-3-Distorted-Truths&p=76350#post76350
- I am explicit about this here at the very beginning of our argument: http://www.zombiepodcast.com/forum/showthread.php?5348-Chapter-45-3-Distorted-Truths&p=76372#post76372
- And my opinion about Riley's general current behaviour shines through this posting: http://www.zombiepodcast.com/forum/showthread.php?5348-Chapter-45-3-Distorted-Truths/page16&p=76432#post76432
There you go. You won't find me banalizing, accepting or welcoming the foreshadowed torture by Riley.

[Osiris]

jus' makin a point, bro.

his maller name could have easily been "plot device", that's entirely true. the point being, in the moment riley steps back into the room shouting.. who is the sympathetic character? most peoples perception leans towards riley, but certain people (myself included) felt for the situation tar is in. that has little to do with liking the character, finding him interesting, etc. its more how you perceive the situation and the characters involved.. now that I really think about it, this entire scene is probably more about burt than either of these two characters, or at least it should be. perhaps his conflict with being on the other end of the torture should have been a bit more pronounced. not sure if that's on scott, or kc. (insert blaire blame here)

The sympathetic character becomes Burt. He's about to be faced with the very treatment that left him crippled, and vulnerable. Now he's being forced to relive it through the actions of someone he cares deeply for. Tardust is a rapist, and a designer drug maker, there's no sympathy there. I don't think you can blame anything on performance or direction here. So far, most internal struggle for each character has been shared through expository journal entries, so there's still time to get into that with Burt. Scott's performance seemed subtle in its nuances. He's dealing with a lot right now, but it seems unnecessary to have two characters both losing their shit, being large, and reactive in the same scene. It would simply be too much. I won't blame Blaire for it either. She gets enough shit from you jerks.

It's not your fault, Blaire.

http://i.imgur.com/yFYjHOk.jpg

[Osiris]

Wow, just wow. Scratch seems to be responsible for the tankers. She lost one and has to scramble to get it back. She tries to intimidate Burt [etal]. This fails. Do not blame this on Burt. He shoots the mirror. That defuses the situation. Period. He could have just as easily shot Scratch! He could do so before she has time to react. Mean while, Latch had put his gun down and was talking to Saul. Hell, even if Latch had a gun, Burt could kill both before they could react.

You don't seem to know what it means to defuse a situation. It means to make a situation less dangerous, embarrassing, or tense. Burt did none of these things. So, no. He did not. In fact, he failed on an order of magnitude not fully realized until Scratch burns his home to the ground. He actually creates a far worse situation, and yes, all of what I said is true about the escalation of the situation, and how Burt's exacerbation of it all proves to be a direct cause to events that follow. You don't need to believe me, you can listen to the tape.


But your Burt love is commendable.

http://i.imgur.com/0Azx6ae.jpg

p.s. (no intent to be with the following) Etal is a village in Northumberland, England. Et al. is an abbreviation of et alii (et alia [fem]) meaning: and others--which is what I believe you were going for, hence the correction.

[DaTank]

i don't know if anybody has said, but the fact Skittles is walking right pass them reminds me of the World War Z movie where some of the people who were already sick, but they never changed.

[Osiris]

Just for the record: At no point I spoke in favor of Riley torturing Tardust. Obviously our mud-wrestling about Scratch and Kalani has made you miss this very specific point. I am sorry; my walls of words must have blurred this very important "fact" about my opinion on things.
To be crystal clear: I don't appreciate, like, enjoy, look forward to it that Riley might or will torture Tardust or whomever. The opposite is true, because I see no justification or excuse or exculpation for torture - no matter how dark this story may be. And I also don't see how the bitterness, revenge, self-pitty of Riley or anyone could be considered as solid and valid motivations to act like that.* I would not want to relate this (too likely) failing of Riley to the failings of Scratch, because either way: failings are wrong.
edit: Aside from that: I started this argument because I did not feel comfortable with being treated like "all" WA fans willing to accept Riley torturing Tardust, because I think besides me there are some (many) other WA fans raising doubts about such an action. But this, too, was drowned in this long, rich, challenging discussion. /edit

Best wishes!
Liam

*
- I implied it here: http://www.zombiepodcast.com/forum/showthread.php?5348-Chapter-45-3-Distorted-Truths&p=76306#post76306
- I would regret her torturing Tardust here: http://www.zombiepodcast.com/forum/showthread.php?5348-Chapter-45-3-Distorted-Truths&p=76350#post76350
- I am explicit about this here at the very beginning of our argument: http://www.zombiepodcast.com/forum/showthread.php?5348-Chapter-45-3-Distorted-Truths&p=76372#post76372
- And my opinion about Riley's general current behaviour shines through this posting: http://www.zombiepodcast.com/forum/showthread.php?5348-Chapter-45-3-Distorted-Truths/page16&p=76432#post76432
There you go. You won't find me banalizing, accepting or welcoming the foreshadowed torture by Riley.

Jesus Christ, bro. I thought you were done. I've already stated it was a broad generalization. My main point in that was your justification of actions were being based off your interpretation of a character's intent. I got that from how you worded your statement, I went as far as highlighting the language in your statement to show you how and why I came to that conclusion. But that's not the issue any longer. Now you just want to argue. Good for you! Here's a cookie.

http://i.imgur.com/5sij5UO.jpg

Not to be dismissive of your feelings on the matter, I'll concede you have strong distaste for the violence in the story. :omgomg:

[LiamKerrington]

Dear Osiris,

I could not resist and simply hat to clarify things. Am not looking for more arguments.

3132

Best wishes!
Liam

[Osiris]

Dear Osiris,

I could not resist and simply hat to clarify things. Am not looking for more arguments.

3132

Best wishes!
Liam

Clarification isn't necessary. The facts are the facts, whether or not you and I agree on them is irrelevant. Answering the question is relevant... so answer the questions.

[LiamKerrington]

Clarification isn't necessary. The facts are the facts, whether or not you and I agree on them is irrelevant. Answering the question is relevant... so answer the questions.

Which one?

[Osiris]

Which one?

http://www.zombiepodcast.com/forum/showthread.php?5348-Chapter-45-3-Distorted-Truths&p=76459&viewfull=1#post76459

[LiamKerrington]

How far is too far?

Really depends on the situation. But as a last ressort I would say: sacrificing morale and ethics, at least the basic concepts of those, although I would kick in way earlier.

In WA-verse the characters we "like" or at least sympathize with have suffered so much, I would like to see them going on, learning from shit and starting to evolve in a positive way instead of spiraling downwards more and more. Considering how scarce zombies and other survivors have come, I really wonder why to fight on instead of getting away and trying to rebuild something. And if it comes to other humans: stick together, at least start sticking together; and if this does not work: leave each other instead of treating individual personal goals like revenge or avenging beloved as primary objectives. That is stupid and puts people at risk, which we have seen a couple of times during the WA show.


What is are acceptable losses when you're out to avenge someone you loved?

The moment you are on the path to avenge someone you loved, you already lost too much. And any more losses are not acceptable.


The reason I brought up Scratch is simple enough, Riley is falling down the same rabbit hole of madness. Whether she's redeemable, or righteous is a matter of perspective, and shouldn't come into play when making the decision. At what point did the lines disappear?

I don't understand the question. What lines?

[Osiris]

I don't understand the question. What lines?

The lines of distinction between psychopathic behaviour, and justified acts to avenge a fallen loved one. There's a point we're fast approaching when one of two things is going to happen, Scratch kills Pegs to avenge her brother or Scratch is killed to avenge Angel. All you have to do is search "Shoot that bitch in the face," and you'll see no end of listeners begging for Scratch's blood to be spilled. This is the point I'm trying to drive towards. It's all insanity.

Does it truly depend on the situation or is it a matter of whose side you're on? I'm not on Riley's side, so I see her actions as being nothing more than blood-lust. I think she's lost her mind, been driven over the edge by Lizzy, and Angel. She's no different than Scratch, similarly driven over the edge by Latch, and her past. Scratch is sympathetic because she's damaged. She lost her only family, the only one who mattered, the only one who made a difference in her life, probably the only person she has ever loved. That was taken away from her by some bitch on the other side. The only thing that made her life mean something. That is what makes her a sympathetic character, and Jenna has done an amazing job bringing that to life.

Do I think she was justified in cutting off Burt's finger? I think it was payback for that day on the street when the first met. Justified? Like you say, it depends on the situation. She's searching for the bitch who murdered her brother. Sure. Justified. Angel? She ended his suffering. I would say it was 80% anger 20% compassion (maybe 90/10). Angel wouldn't have survived either way. Is Riley justified in her own vendetta? What did she lose? Two people who were strangers from the start. Sure, they got close, but were they family? No. Justified? I just don't see her situation as warranting it. She (to bring it back to an earlier point) should have just let it go, tucked her tail, and moved on.

[LiamKerrington]

If I were in the situation of Scratch, I would see justification in "my" deeds as well. I am not certain, though, I want to call it "justified", what she did. But this is - as you keep stressing - a...

[Litmaster]

Okay Osiris, I re-listened to that first meeting between Burt and Scratch. You are correct: Burt does escalate the situation by being more aggressive and threatening then he probably needs to in that situation. Scratch does the very same thing. She is every bit as aggressive and threatening as Burt.

So I agree with you that Burt escalated the situation a bit more than necessary because of his ultra macho behavior. I do not agree that this necessarily makes him at fault for all of the further aggressions directed towards the Tower folk by the Mallers.

So help me out, will you? I may have lost your central argument somewhere in the long string of posts... what is your main point? Are you arguing that the Tower folk are every bit as "evil" as the Mallers, the only difference being the perspective of the story? Is that it?

[Osiris]

Okay Osiris, I re-listened to that first meeting between Burt and Scratch. You are correct: Burt does escalate the situation by being more aggressive and threatening then he probably needs to in that situation. Scratch does the very same thing. She is every bit as aggressive and threatening as Burt.

So I agree with you that Burt escalated the situation a bit more than necessary because of his ultra macho behavior. I do not agree that this necessarily makes him at fault for all of the further aggressions directed towards the Tower folk by the Mallers.

So help me out, will you? I may have lost your central argument somewhere in the long string of posts... what is your main point? Are you arguing that the Tower folk are every bit as "evil" as the Mallers, the only difference being the perspective of the story? Is that it?

Simply a matter of perspective. Why is it so important? Because of the moment when Burt laughs. That's always stuck in my craw. He's figuring they've got these two total strangers outmatched. He's setting a clear line in the sand right there: I'm out for me and mine, and my attitude is based on how superior I believe myself, and my fire-power to be in any given situation. You've got to admit, that's a shitty way to start a relationship, and very telling about his character. Opportunistic, lazy moral compass. Two strangers... in the distance... non-threatening posture... Burt takes it as an opportunity to assert his dominance. And yet, he's beloved because we follow him, and learn his story. His approach from the start is dickish.

Be it use of a popular meme, but the sentiment holds true:

"Everyone you meet is fighting a battle you know nothing about. Be kind. Always."

[LiamKerrington]

Simply a matter of perspective. Why is it so important? Because of the moment when Burt laughs. That's always stuck in my craw. He's figuring they've got these two total strangers outmatched. He's setting a clear line in the sand right there: I'm out for me and mine, and my attitude is based on how superior I believe myself, and my fire-power to be in any given situation. You've got to admit, that's a shitty way to start a relationship, and very telling about his character. Opportunistic, lazy moral compass. Two strangers... in the distance... non-threatening posture... Burt takes it as an opportunity to assert his dominance. And yet, he's beloved because we follow him, and learn his story. His approach from the start is dickish.

Be it use of a popular meme, but the sentiment holds true:

"Everyone you meet is fighting a battle you know nothing about. Be kind. Always."

Haven't seen it that way. But I feel like I want to agree.

[Osiris]

Haven't seen it that way. But I feel like I want to agree.

If you feel the need to agree on anything at all, with any argument I make, agree that JAWS was a villain.

http://i.imgur.com/zHUXibD.jpg

[LiamKerrington]

If you feel the need to agree on anything at all, with any argument I make, agree that JAWS was a villain.

http://i.imgur.com/zHUXibD.jpg

Who the eff is Jaws???

[Osiris]

http://i.imgur.com/IXN49yi.jpg

[LiamKerrington]

http://i.imgur.com/IXN49yi.jpg

Well, isn't this a matter of perspective - again? And how would it be possible for an animal to be a villain?

[Osiris]

Well, isn't this a matter of perspective - again? And how would it be possible for an animal to be a villain?

A question only Steve-Dave can answer.

[LiamKerrington]

A question only Steve-Dave can answer.

Would you mind offering a link? Steve-Dave is not so uncommon, so google-fu does not help me a lot ...

[Osiris]

Would you mind offering a link? Steve-Dave is not so uncommon, so google-fu does not help me a lot ...

http://smodcast.com/episodes/happys-dead/

about 54:40

[LiamKerrington]

http://smodcast.com/episodes/happys-dead/

about 54:40

Interesting podcast ... Another one for my list of podcasts. Thanks for sharing.

[clem131]

:hsugh: You've completely missed my point, but exemplified it profoundly. Thanks.

Anytime!

[Grognaurd]

You don't seem to know what it means to defuse a situation. It means to make a situation less dangerous, embarrassing, or tense. Burt did none of these things. So, no. He did not. In fact, he failed on an order of magnitude not fully realized until Scratch burns his home to the ground. He actually creates a far worse situation, and yes, all of what I said is true about the escalation of the situation, and how Burt's exacerbation of it all proves to be a direct cause to events that follow. You don't need to believe me, you can listen to the tape.


But your Burt love is commendable.

p.s. (no intent to be with the following) Etal is a village in Northumberland, England. Et al. is an abbreviation of et alii (et alia [fem]) meaning: and others--which is what I believe you were going for, hence the correction.

Oh well, I am sure your "correction" is well practiced. But, if you think I am going to worry about that level of detail in a casual post you are nuts. If you are so literal that you had trouble parsing the sentance or it somehow makes you feel superior, i feel sorry for you. However, if you are going to take the time to correct me, you should do it correctly. I am pretty sure it should be in italics.

I feel really bad for you. I thought your delusions had diminished and your ego was more in check when you changed your forum name. I was wrong.

Unload on me and maybe some sort of transference may brighten your day. I am done with this sub-thread.

[Osiris]

Oh well, I am sure your "correction" is well practiced. But, if you think I am going to worry about that level of detail in a casual post you are nuts. If you are so literal that you had trouble parsing the sentance or it somehow makes you feel superior, i feel sorry for you. However, if you are going to take the time to correct me, you should do it correctly. I am pretty sure it should be in italics.

I feel really bad for you. I thought your delusions had diminished and your ego was more in check when you changed your forum name. I was wrong.

Unload on me and maybe some sort of transference may brighten your day. I am done with this sub-thread.

So that's your move? Verbal abuse in the face of a simple correction? Glad you're done with this thread, your input hasn't been helpful, and it hasn't furthered the discussion.

[clem131]

Those are the facts as you see them, yes. Some of it is speculative, some is a matter of perspective.

For the record, the reason behind the war at the tower, the attacks on the Michael's group... the entire Scratch arc all hinges on one act. Burt shooting the mirror of the tanker truck in Scratch's first appearance in an attempt to assert his alpha dog status. Burt's ego got all of those people killed. Burt's actions caused Pegs to be hunted, Lizzy to be kidnapped, and almost raped, and CJ to lose her leg.

How many times do I have to repeat this (http://www.zombiepodcast.com/forum/showthread.php?5291-Chapter-44-3-Life-and-Death&p=75324&viewfull=1#post75324)?!



Actually, this goes all the way back to my countryman Eugenio Barsanti, who invented the internal combustion engine in the 18th century, leading to its diffusion and popularity, leading to a diesel generator being the only reliable and fast way to supply power to the Tower, leading to Burt, Saul and Lizzie going to steal the Tanker of Discord from the Maller's territory.
DAMN YOU, EUGENIO!!! :mad:

[Kc]

*Sitting back, eating popcorn....

This is entertaining stuff. I was hoping for discussions like this...

[TacticalJHP]

*Sitting back, eating popcorn....

This is entertaining stuff. I was hoping for discussions like this...

There was not enough popcorn in the house, I had to send my girlfriend out for two bags of flaming hot cheetos.

[Litmaster]

*Sitting back, eating popcorn....

This is entertaining stuff. I was hoping for discussions like this...

Fuck it. This shit is all Kc's fault. :nik:

[7oddisdead]

:nik:


but seriously, how is any of this constructive? I'm with grog. I'm done here.

[TacticalJHP]

Fuck it. This shit us all Kc's fault. :nik:

When it all boils down, KC created Scratch, Tardust, and all the revenge plots that exist between them and Pegs, Burt, and Riley...All the pissing contests...all the hate...and all the tears...

Without him, there would be no bitches to shoot in the face. :nik:

[Osiris]

How many times do I have to repeat this (http://www.zombiepodcast.com/forum/showthread.php?5291-Chapter-44-3-Life-and-Death&p=75324&viewfull=1#post75324)?!

I don't know. When it becomes relevant to the scenario I'll tell you. But, please, please keep going with your sarcasm, it'll eventually win you points. Or an infraction... or a ban...

[Osiris]

*Sitting back, eating popcorn....

This is entertaining stuff. I was hoping for discussions like this...

I couldn't help it. It's like a sickness.

http://i.imgur.com/7Ica4be.jpg

[Osiris]

:nik:


but seriously, how is any of this constructive? I'm with grog. I'm done here.

Don't forget to take your ball, bro.

[Gooer]

So, have the last 10 pages been about how Scratch shouldn't be considered a villian, and that Riley is just as bad..... or no.....?

[Osiris]

So, have the last 10 pages been about how Scratch shouldn't be considered a villian, and that Riley is just as bad..... or no.....?

Did you read them?

[Gooer]

Did you read them?

Not all of them, haven't had time to read 100 posts lol

[Osiris]

Not all of them, haven't had time to read 100 posts lol

Glad you've made assumptions.

[Gooer]

Glad you've made assumptions.

Sorry for not having time to read EVERY SINGLE POST, you know, being a university student, and only remembering the context of the posts that i've actually managed to read over the past few days..... Jeez.

[Osiris]

Sorry for not having time to read EVERY SINGLE POST, you know, being a university student, and only remembering the context of the posts that i've actually managed to read over the past few days..... Jeez.

If you're looking for sympathy... you're looking to the wrong guy.

[clem131]

I don't know. When it becomes relevant to the scenario I'll tell you. But, please, please keep going with your sarcasm, it'll eventually win you points. Or an infraction... or a ban...

LOL :D
At this point, Osiris, just go for a walk and come back when you have vented some of that bitterness.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZzmxUXvE3m4

[Gooer]

If you're looking for sympathy... you're looking to the wrong guy.

What?

[Gooer]

All i said in the first place was asking what the 100 odd posts were about, since i saw it beginning with you saying that we are looking at Scratch the wrong way, since we don't know her back ground, and shouldn't allign ourselves with Riley since she is doing the same as Scratch, as we know Riley's background we shouldn't overlook what she is doing, then you come in saying that i'm making assumptions....

[clem131]

Or do that, sure, whatever works for you! :)
I'm out as well, this is just sad.

[Osiris]

Or do that, sure, whatever works for you! :)
I'm out as well, this is just sad.

:britt:

[Litmaster]

:britt:

Way to go, pal. You have succeeded in ostracizing the entire Forum. Nice moderating there. :nik:

Unfortunately, I think you might actually have a point there about the perspective of the story. I'll investigate some more and try to dig up some more ammo to blast in your face. :nik:


p.s. Your new avatar looks fucking demented. Worried about your psychological state... :nik: