NEW Infection Theory

[Drogon Malice]

OK I've tried to make this as easy to read as possible, all i ask is that you forgive my spelling and grammar and actually read it

alright basically i have a new theory, that the sickness is a neurological infection of some kind, i stick to what i said in previous posts about it using body fats (the difference between trans fats and saturated fat) but i will admit maybe it needs to be revisited.

i also stand by the point that the "illness" or "virus" for a lack of a better word in my mind is effected by Iron in the body.

now i don't know how much thought KC put into the sickness but i guess we'll find out when its all said and done. i digress though.

in short what if the virus lives off trans fats and saturated fats (i need to check my old posts about that, like i said before)

what if iron in the body impedes it oppresses it completely. so seriously a massive fist full of iron supplement tablets might be a cure.

the thing that got my chain of thought on this is the chapter "separate dying embers" Tommy got covered in "crud" from the zombie or whatever and he was reluctant to get washed off by Kelly, now we know those two don't have a great relationship but maybe that was just masking the effects of a slow turner.

"Tommy only had a small cut on him" but we don't actually know for sure if it went into the wound it could of got into his nose or mouth or eyes, etc anyways! due to his seliac condition, and his intolerance to gluten he probably has a lot of vitamins and iron in his diet having a lot of meat as part of his natural diet, meaning he has a stronger immune system to some extent but its too fast for the immune system to respond, it strikes me more as a micro organism to an extent but Tommy is making a fuss with Lizzy saying he doesn't want to be cleaned, Tommy may of already known he's going to turned. Riley was saying that it happened a lot faster with people in the streets and then again everyone has said "it would of happened by now" on several occasions, i guess this means iron impedes the virus, slows it down, stops it from maxing out through the nervous system.

this brings me to Ink, who is covered in tattoos from head to toe, so what is his infection is progressing at a MUCH slower rate, causing any mutation to be maximized in a constant rate, for example, the normal ones after 5 months or however long Saul and Lizzy had been separated for, to an extent the virus would be quickly progressing and be using the bodies natural fats and such to mutate, this would explain how the infected get stronger and faster yet ever so skinner to almost super human levels. and the fat ones get tougher as even though everything is mutating it would still have to mutate the body fat as it slowly breaks it down. to use it, this i guess explains why the Behemoths just get tougher and tougher, in theory according to this, those will last the longest, maybe with the exception of INK. which also means if IRON slows down the turning process, it explains why Saul was an AMAZINGLY slow turner, even though the bullet is made of led, the fact metal is in the area, could of impeded it, but i don't know the difference between iron and lead and the relationship between them atomically, i suppose a little research should be done there. but i digress, led in the body, probably not enough for led poisoning but enough to drown out the virus something fierce. which means its not just iron its heavy metals.

so in short:

what is Tommy was the slow turner and what if Saul was an INCREDIBLY slow turner, now if Saul did get some kind of poisoning or perhaps a shard was left inside it would explain why he's still getting pain in his shoulder 5 months later in December after the tower fell, although we would be expected to have that chalked up to the wound being cortaoised. so what if a small shard is in there, he's treated any infection due to heavy medication and its just sitting there slowly slowly slowly giving off low levels of led which is running through his immune system giving him some kind of heavy metal poisoning, in fact a lot of us in our day to day lives get some kind of heavy metal poisoning and don't even know it. so when Saul and Victor went to the crack in the ground and found nothing, it didn't explain anything, maybe because we're just simply looking in the wrong place now, THEN to top it off there's a problem with the line's and Saul is fine, and we're drawing attention to the IV drip bag, and over looking the fact something small like a slither of a fragment might be all it takes to set him off. so its not just iron its all sorts of metal poisoning. Victor hasn't been sick with anything like that.

for example something triggered a thought in my mind.

when they did the experiment to track The infected. on a hot sunny day, they zip lined across to another building they dropped the bottles and it took a while to take effect, what if we're just focusing on the salt water / sweat and whats in that. what if there's something else, how about HEAT!.

a quick explination

during "seperate dying embers" there was a pile on fire on the outside of the building,

Angel threw a bottle out there it didn't break, Burt then shot it, now as far as i know Bullets which have been fired are HOT! and even if there not ITS RIGHT BY " a burning pile of trash" maybe this explains why winter, the infected are hunting them and knocking on the doors of the colony, because the cold weather is repressing it some how, i honestly don't know, its a guess / speculation, but its food for thought. we're ALWAYS looking different things, i think this has merit too it.

i believe there's a few biologists of some kind roaming the forums, i would like you guys to take a look at what I've got here and have a crack at it tear it apart, i would geek out on a mental level if i actually had it right on this post.

Iron doesn't enhance it, body fat does.
Iron Slows it down, making INK the smartest due to the number of tattoo's he has and thus the level of heavy metal poisoning he's got. heavy metal poisoning i don't think is fatal, i guess it is depending on the level and what type of metal. mercury for example will kill anyone but i digress.

i submit this and effectively throw this steak to the wolves.


you guys have fun, please discuss, i hope i actually have got something here!


Drogon

[Witch_Doctor]

Most clever speculation I've read to date.
I like the points tying Tommy's celiac decease to his slower rate of turning. However, from the number of first-hand turnings on the show, only Fernando turns within seconds. The soldiers in Red Winter and the convoy survivor in The End is Near turn minutes after exposure. (I'm assuming the convoy survivor at the 2nd Medical Checkpoint was infected prior to entering the checkpoint facility while the nearest Z was still some distance away.)

Someone more knowledgeable might comment on the bullet metals.

Lots of fine details that might not pan out but you've raised a lot of points that might be relevant.
Good starting point though.

[Drogon Malice]

maybe its a case of simply as the virus mutates and develops, it takes longer to actually infect / turn you. a virus's main ability to infect someone right away is key, but after constant mutation of 5 + months it might not be so quick as its focus hasn't been on spreading and just rapid growth, so as time goes on maybe and i stress maybe it takes longer to turn, Tommy got off some big chunks like he said but didn't get cleaned off, and the idea of heat and body sweat was actually inspired from an episode of stargate atlantis i saw a long time ago. its the one where they first find the Aratis bug and its latched onto Sheppard (if you've seen the show, you know what I'm talking about, if not i suggest you check it out)

but metal poisoning makes sense, when a bullet impacts something it fragments, i believe even 9mm rounds fragment inside the human body, now despite being a good shot with a gun that doesn't make me any sort of expert.

the rate of infection to a new person vs how long someone has been infected for to me makes some sort of sense, besides i think its only instant turning if basically you have a low iron count in your blood, for example.... right at the very start, Riley and Pegs either it was both of them or just one of them (in that case i think it's Riley) recall them..... now I've not exactly listened to it but they were "throwing up blood on people" and they would turn right away, when Pegs got scratched by zombie kitty it was something like less then 40 seconds approximately that they were talking before they were like "no it would of happened by now" (again not listened to it, I'm not exactly gonna sit there and watch the seconds tick over in my Itunes and time the conversation)

but to go and compare everyone who's been infected and how they turn and all that is one hell of a thing, and you know what I'll honestly do it, if someone can tell me when people turn, aka what chapters and what part of those chapters, i'll give it a listen. Witch_Doctor you've given some examples if you tell me what parts (I'm going away for the weekend) I'll listen more closely when i get back and come up with some kind of analysis.

but i do think the longer one of "them" has been infected for causes a great mutation, initially it happened in seconds, but i don't remember what the chapter is called, the soldier from the helicopter who got turned, didn't turn till they were close to the military base, and again, not entirely sure, according to Micheal the flight was a few hours.

given how strong that was, mutation is high so the need to reproduce is low. so it means such a powerful mutation would need to re-adapt to the new host effectively reverting sort of like a jelly fish to a previous point and then infecting the host and then mutating all over again.


OH and thinking about it, Tommy must of had some if not on his cut but in his eyes or nose or somewhere else on his body, I'll admit its easier to say it got in through his cut, but he didn't get washed off, he was clothed and the sickness isn't passable through skin as we found out early on, so its really sort of blood contact only. or injury based of some kind.


Witch_Doctor given you've responded, what do you think of that?

[Drogon Malice]

Someone more knowledgeable might comment on the bullet metals.



incidentally bullet materials the actual bullet is made of led however the casing which stores the gun powder and such is made of copper i know that much, i did some research a few months ago out of bordem about armor piercing bullets, (FUN FACT) effectively the bullets are molded in a special bullet making tool via melted down led, maybe not on an industrial level but at least by hand. using this tool and this method you can replace led with steel and effectively then have armor piercing bullets, the case will be ejected but instead of a led bullet its a steel bullet.


BUT another small point now I'll admit I'm not too sure about this but I've heard in passing KC has said "these aren't zombies"

and to be honest I've always seen them more as mutants anyway, something about them seems like a mutant zombie hybrid which is friggin' awesome in my opinion, and at least to some extent, this makes some level of sense to me, this whole theory

(sorry for the double post folks)

[scbubba]

Good food for thought, Drogon Malice. I'll need to think it over a bit and go back and listen to a few specific places to see if I can line it all up.

Off the cuff, I think we have several anecdotal "instant turnings" in the story and a couple of listener witnessed "quick turnings" (meaning within, say, tens of seconds). I will say that some of the differences in things like turning time might be chalked up to dramatic effect more than science due to the audio medium. Since we have to hear the descriptions of the environment, it may take longer in listener time to get the story details about a quickly unfolding event. So, there might not be significance in the time it took Tommy to turn compared to Fernando solely based on the fact that Tommy's turn had a more dramatic impact on the story.

Anyway, there is obviously something up with Saul and we've been lead down the path that it has to do with medications after his GSW. Then, of course, we find that Tanya has something going on as well and since she and Saul are closely blood related, we are also lead down the path of a genetic factor.

Whatever the science behind it is, Tanya knows more than we do at this point, IMO, and will be key (I know, "thank you, Capt. Obvious").

Thanks for putting this theory out here!

[Bakkie-Pleur]

Wow Drogon Malice you did your homework! Very well put together! Still I sometimes do wonder if KC had the background story already in his head when We're Alive started, and maybe left it in the open for when he had a good theory... Or maybe he just could not think of a good theory and waited for the people on the forum for what they would come up with.:)

[Osiris]

Bookmarked to read this week sometime . . . I promise!

[Bakkie-Pleur]

I recently again started with we're alive, yesterday i began at chapter 18(part 2)when they first enter the colony, i noticed that when Michael showed tanya the pictures of Saul's injury she mentions that if he has blood poisoning he is as good as dead... Still i think you might be on the right track with your theory.

[Drogon Malice]

I recently again started with we're alive, yesterday i began at chapter 18(part 2)when they first enter the colony, i noticed that when Michael showed tanya the pictures of Saul's injury she mentions that if he has blood poisoning he is as good as dead... Still i think you might be on the right track with your theory.

wow thanks man, I've stopped listening for a day or two, just getting other things done in life. but that is very significant, something else that's come along suggesting it could support my theory, even then, we all know this thing transfers via blood, Tommy's Blood and Riley's account of seeing the infected vomit blood on people, we're made to look at things like genetics but i think its all just misdirection at this point. to some extent at least anyway, i mean doesn't it sound just a bit convienient if saul and Tanya BOTH we're "SOMEHOW" geneticly superior and thus Immune?

[PhysicsLB]

Scientifically, it would make a lot of sense if both saul and tanya were immune. Passing on immunities/physical advantages to your offspring is how adaptation works. If momma is immune, it stands to reason that her son would as well.

Also, look at how the zombies change: increased bone density, additional arteries on the heart, improved senses (particularly smell), greater stength, bulletproof skin? Doesnt sound like this is neurological. Whatever this infection is, it definitely has mutanagenic properties.

I think its still a bit too early to tell exactly what the zombie plague is.

[Robzombie]

effectively the bullets are molded in a special bullet making tool via melted down led, maybe not on an industrial level but at least by hand. using this tool and this method you can replace led with steel and effectively then have armor piercing bullets, the case will be ejected but instead of a led bullet its a steel bullet.



Just thought I'd mention quickly, the melting point of steel is around 2500 deg F, which would make it extremely difficult to do what your saying especially with no industrial capacity. I don't think IF anyone could melt steel that they would want to even handle it with a manual bullet maker. Lead melts very easily on the other hand.

[Drogon Malice]

Scientifically, it would make a lot of sense if both saul and tanya were immune. Passing on immunities/physical advantages to your offspring is how adaptation works. If momma is immune, it stands to reason that her son would as well.

Also, look at how the zombies change: increased bone density, additional arteries on the heart, improved senses (particularly smell), greater stength, bulletproof skin? Doesnt sound like this is neurological. Whatever this infection is, it definitely has mutanagenic properties.

I think its still a bit too early to tell exactly what the zombie plague is.

well i did talk about how the infection uses body fat, i did a seperate post on that actually in another theory about the difference between trans fats and another type of fat. but what ever it is, no one seems to be immune.

if Tanya and Saul we're immune in some way they would of had to of been exposed to it time and time again slowly over long periods of time to get a resistance. yes there both medical professionals, but then it becomes a bit like the walking dead and everyone has it type of deal, i don't think that's the case. to be honest i always thought it was a mutation and thus maybe some kind of radiation enduced event caused it, in my other theory post i speculated a little bit on solar radiation perhaps a solar flare, but then again.... think about it "Radon Labs"

Radon aka radiation, maybe a mutation of something pre-existing, perhaps something like mad cow disease but body fats are usually everywhere on the body, the brain itself is mainly fat i believe. i do find it odd that there would be people conveniently immune to it in the story, if that was the case. given we can establish this is a mutation. i did initially think it was just the dawn of a new mutated species, yet it can be spread via blood, maybe blood infection is all it is.

oh and also the Pheramon theory is a good one and explains a lot, but seriously, how could they smell something so far away, if they could smell you like that, wouldn't Angel, Burt AND Saul all been attacked on the roof the night they found burt, wouldn't that whole herd just gone for them and climbed up some how, there also smart they could of stormed the roof even by going through the building.

its possible but unlikely, the brain would of had to mutate drastically as well as the body. new nasal receptors and such sprouted and made stronger in the nose, even then the brain needs to change accordingly, such a violent mutation right off the bat, doesn't make much sense. i think we are missing something.

but on the topic of saul's supposed immunity....

Tommy has Celiac Disease
gets some of tommy's blood in him, the infected blood no doubt and starts his slow turning process.

tommy doesn't eat glutin, so lots of meat and veg for the kid, strong iron contents and such like i said before...... and incidently burt tells saul about the time a tuna sandwhich saved his life, the clues are subtle and for a while point towards diet, even the towers food supply is conviently short and is a back ground issue, i think those are clues. so perhaps some kind of Omega 3 infection, tuna has a lot of omega 3, the brain consists of omega 3 to some extent and i would imagine so does the nervous system (but that I'm not sure) unless its some kind of omega 3 infection which is a specific type of fat which brings me to one of the points about it i always had it would make some kind of sense built on there, like a virus mutates into complex organism, thrives in omega 3 and mutates the host body like a parasitic virus causing mutation as side effect.

there's a lot of signs around that time regarding food, even then, Saul and angel go get MRE's which initially was the thing that made me look at the different types of fat incidentally they fought a great big fat behemoth. the sub hints towards fat are huge. also another interesting thing is that Saul grabbed some "Tuna" right at the start when raiding for supplies with Angel.

i think it does hold merit but without working it out properly and looking at it in a lab we won't know how it works, which won't happen until after the final fight and Tanya gets to break into a hospital and analyze everything under the right type of microscopes and X-ray machines, etc.

[PhysicsLB]

If you expose a large enough population to a disease, there will be those who are immune to it. It comes from genetic variation. You see it all the time in lesser life forms, like bacteria. It's why things like lysol spray are only 99.9% effective. If Tanya is one of those people who is "lucky" enough to have a natural immunity, there is a good chance she would have passed it onto saul.

A mutated mad cow disease seems unlikely. Mad cow deteriorates the brain matter, it doesnt fundamentally alter it.
However, my ears also perked up at the mention of Radon Labs. I doubt they are completely innocent.

As for the pheramone thing, you cant really dispute that. Those guys WERE attacked on the roof by the radon labs guy. Also, the pheramones are contained in sweat. If you aren't sweating, you aren't releasing pheramones. This of course doesn't take into account any other odors that are present (cologne, smoke, rotting flesh). Also, you need to be downwind of the source. So wind would play a factor. I believe in their experiment they even said the wind changed before the zeds showed up. Additionally, humans are already sensitive to pheromones. It helps us choose a mate. So increasing the sensitivity would likely be a small change when compared to some others...Also, we know this disease drastically alters the body, why would the brain be any different? It CLEARLY changes bone density, muscular structure etc etc...to say it should have no effect on the brain seems counterintuitive.

Burning through the bodies fat reserves to power the change seems quite likely. We never hear about "fat" zombies, and they obviously have a huge appetite (they eat people, their own, and regular food).

I wont rule out Celiac Disease playing a part (mostly because we dont really know whats happening on a microscopic level), but diet playing a part also seems unlikely. While tommy couldnt eat glutein, there wasnt any special food that only he was eating, he was just getting more veggies (going on the "stolen food" they found in his room). Instead, look at the source of his infection: Leaper guts getting in a small cut. His rate of infection was slow most likely because the vector for infection was similarly small.

I'd also like to point out something else: Depending on how tanya and saul gained their supposed immunity, it determines what type of infection the "plague" is.

If the antibiotics saved them: Bacterial
If its genetic: Viral

[Drogon Malice]

Just thought I'd mention quickly, the melting point of steel is around 2500 deg F, which would make it extremely difficult to do what your saying especially with no industrial capacity. I don't think IF anyone could melt steel that they would want to even handle it with a manual bullet maker. Lead melts very easily on the other hand.

Like i Said i'm No Pro, dispite the fact i may have a theory i don't have a complete knowledge of metallurgy or firearms. how ever that wasn't the point, the point was to share what little knowledge i had in place, i have also heard of steel bullets being manufactured.

[Drogon Malice]

If you expose a large enough population to a disease, there will be those who are immune to it. It comes from genetic variation. You see it all the time in lesser life forms, like bacteria. It's why things like lysol spray are only 99.9% effective. If Tanya is one of those people who is "lucky" enough to have a natural immunity, there is a good chance she would have passed it onto saul.

A mutated mad cow disease seems unlikely. Mad cow deteriorates the brain matter, it doesnt fundamentally alter it.
However, my ears also perked up at the mention of Radon Labs. I doubt they are completely innocent.

As for the pheramone thing, you cant really dispute that. Those guys WERE attacked on the roof by the radon labs guy. Also, the pheramones are contained in sweat. If you aren't sweating, you aren't releasing pheramones. This of course doesn't take into account any other odors that are present (cologne, smoke, rotting flesh). Also, you need to be downwind of the source. So wind would play a factor. I believe in their experiment they even said the wind changed before the zeds showed up. Additionally, humans are already sensitive to pheromones. It helps us choose a mate. So increasing the sensitivity would likely be a small change when compared to some others...Also, we know this disease drastically alters the body, why would the brain be any different? It CLEARLY changes bone density, muscular structure etc etc...to say it should have no effect on the brain seems counterintuitive.

Burning through the bodies fat reserves to power the change seems quite likely. We never hear about "fat" zombies, and they obviously have a huge appetite (they eat people, their own, and regular food).

I wont rule out Celiac Disease playing a part (mostly because we dont really know whats happening on a microscopic level), but diet playing a part also seems unlikely. While tommy couldnt eat glutein, there wasnt any special food that only he was eating, he was just getting more veggies (going on the "stolen food" they found in his room). Instead, look at the source of his infection: Leaper guts getting in a small cut. His rate of infection was slow most likely because the vector for infection was similarly small.

I'd also like to point out something else: Depending on how tanya and saul gained their supposed immunity, it determines what type of infection the "plague" is.

If the antibiotics saved them: Bacterial
If its genetic: Viral

yeah i know all this stuff, its been the most popular theory on the forum's I'm not disputing it I'm just thinking maybe we should shelf it and look at it from a different angle, its not much to go on but the premise of heat has been active the whole time and when it got cold the infected attacked a group, for food or shelter i don't think anyone knows, perhaps both, but i digress. i just think its worth looking at the other factors before we all unanimously agree its definitely the Pheramone, how do we not know they have some kind of heat vision, we all know their eyes are different, perhaps some kind of new lenses are formed and they get some kind of heat vision like Predator, maybe the eyes being different isn't a sign of being infected, what if its to do with their hunting and vision, instead of human eyes they have.... lets say some kind of slit eyes like how humans have round pupils but i think crocodiles and cats have slit eyes, and i understand that the characters are talking about the whites of their eyes, not pupils, i was using pupils as an example to get my point across.



I'd also like to point out something else: Depending on how tanya and saul gained their supposed immunity, it determines what type of infection the "plague" is.

If the antibiotics saved them: Bacterial
If its genetic: Viral

my point is why speculate when we should be analyzing what we can to determin what is is by analyzing the symptoms, given its nothing we've seen before and a mutation and what at the very least it COULD of mutated from.

remember it is a story, KC will probably just say he made something up because it was cool, if there's actually something CLOSE to this out there, i would really start gearing up for this to happen now. seriously, I'd start storing supplies

[Drogon Malice]

Scientifically, it would make a lot of sense if both saul and tanya were immune. Passing on immunities/physical advantages to your offspring is how adaptation works. If momma is immune, it stands to reason that her son would as well.

Also, look at how the zombies change: increased bone density, additional arteries on the heart, improved senses (particularly smell), greater stength, bulletproof skin? Doesnt sound like this is neurological. Whatever this infection is, it definitely has mutanagenic properties.

I think its still a bit too early to tell exactly what the zombie plague is.

forgive me i'm not trying to be any sort of rude when i ask this.

but..... given that this is nothing like we have ever seen in our recorded history and i assume that stands in WA as well as Micheal says "we've never seen anything like this before" or something similar.

how is it possible that a mother and son are both genetically immune to it, when its never existed in the environment to develop immunity from. typically you have to be exposed to something to be immune to it and to top it off, it is a mutation, so unless this is a dawn of a new species on the planet, that would make them genetically incapable of making the change from human to infected. how can you explain genetic supremacy without any idea of genetic background, genetic heritage other than what momma's got and where could anywhere in the past they have been exposed to it to develop immunity. if its not genetic supremacy its a genetic flaw, which seems a stretch. this thing spreads like AIDs via blood and has never been seen before and some how we're led to believe they're immune through genetics? that doesn't even make sense. have you ever met anyone who is genetically immune to AIDs?

[Witch_Doctor]

how is it possible that a mother and son are both genetically immune to it, when its never existed in the environment to develop immunity from. typically you have to be exposed to something to be immune to it and to top it off, it is a mutation, so unless this is a dawn of a new species on the planet, that would make them genetically incapable of making the change from human to infected. how can you explain genetic supremacy without any idea of genetic background, genetic heritage other than what momma's got and where could anywhere in the past they have been exposed to it to develop immunity. if its not genetic supremacy its a genetic flaw, which seems a stretch. this thing spreads like AIDs via blood and has never been seen before and some how we're led to believe they're immune through genetics? that doesn't even make sense. have you ever met anyone who is genetically immune to AIDs?

To borrow a phrase, "It only takes one." By 'one' I'm referring to an individual or a small percentage of a population that has a natural immunity that passes it along to a population of it's descendants. Looking back at PhysicsLB's comment
It comes from genetic variation. You see it all the time in lesser life forms, like bacteria. It's why things like lysol spray are only 99.9% effective. If Tanya is one of those people who is "lucky" enough to have a natural immunity, there is a good chance she would have passed it onto saul. if a large section of the population that is not immune is wiped out, then the small part that is immune will will now be a large part of the survivors. As the survivors begin to increase in numbers, a greater percentage of their descendents will be immune to the next mass exposure. This is how a population gains immunity.

As for an individual, if a person is exposed to some disease-causing agent in a small amount, then that person's immune system adapts anti-bodies to fight it off.

However, a genetic immunity does not need a prior exposure. The agent could attack certain proteins that an individual does not produce, or an individual may create a certain protein that impedes the agent. So, an individual need not to have had prior exposure to be immune to something, even if it is new. Another fact to note is that different populations of people have varying degrees of genetic diversity. Sub-Saharan Africans have the greatest and (Asians?) have the least.

[PhysicsLB]

Infared vision is a flawed theory. Zeds are alive, not dead. Therefore they generate body heat. There would be no way of differentiating between Zed, and non-Zed with infared vision. Not to mention, they're in LA in the summer when the outbreak occurs. The amount of latent heat trapped in concrete/tarmac would totally screw their vision. Also, you'd see a moth-like behavior of running into fire and i haven't seen any Zeds doing a buddhist protest yet.

Genetic Immunity is basic biology. Also, AIDS isn't a valid example. It's only present in a relatively small amount of the global population. Besides that, AIDS isnt the lethal vector. It weakens the immune system and allows other infections to run rampant. If you were immune to AIDS you would never even know you had been exposed.

Here's a better example: The Bubonic Plague.
It's Estimated to have killed 30-60% of the European population, if genetic immunity didnt exist (much like you seem to think) then why didnt it wipe out 100%? There wasnt anything like it before, it was the first major plague to affect mankind. By your line of reasoning it should have wiped us out.

As for the bacterial/viral thing: that isn't conjecture, it's fact. Anti-biotics dont do squat against a virus, and conversely, without them bacterial infections can run rampant. The only other possibility is a parasite but that seems unlikely. Also, not using conjecture on a topic like this is just silly. Your entrie theory would then be invalid because it's just that: conjecture.

Also, it isnt just blood-borne. The little ones weren't bleeding all over everyone, but they managed to turn all of Boulder.

You asked people to tear into your theory and see what works and what doesnt.

Things that I think you have right:
Use of body fat to fuel the changes.
Source of the infection may be some bad-ass version of some other virus/bacteria/whatever.
Radon Labs is involved.

Things that need more work:
Heavy metals connection
infrared vision
virus turning into a parasite in the presence of Omega-3s (what?)

[Drogon Malice]

Infared vision is a flawed theory. Zeds are alive, not dead. Therefore they generate body heat. There would be no way of differentiating between Zed, and non-Zed with infared vision. Not to mention, they're in LA in the summer when the outbreak occurs. The amount of latent heat trapped in concrete/tarmac would totally screw their vision. Also, you'd see a moth-like behavior of running into fire and i haven't seen any Zeds doing a buddhist protest yet.

Genetic Immunity is basic biology. Also, AIDS isn't a valid example. It's only present in a relatively small amount of the global population. Besides that, AIDS isnt the lethal vector. It weakens the immune system and allows other infections to run rampant. If you were immune to AIDS you would never even know you had been exposed.

Here's a better example: The Bubonic Plague.
It's Estimated to have killed 30-60% of the European population, if genetic immunity didnt exist (much like you seem to think) then why didnt it wipe out 100%? There wasnt anything like it before, it was the first major plague to affect mankind. By your line of reasoning it should have wiped us out.

As for the bacterial/viral thing: that isn't conjecture, it's fact. Anti-biotics dont do squat against a virus, and conversely, without them bacterial infections can run rampant. The only other possibility is a parasite but that seems unlikely. Also, not using conjecture on a topic like this is just silly. Your entrie theory would then be invalid because it's just that: conjecture.

Also, it isnt just blood-borne. The little ones weren't bleeding all over everyone, but they managed to turn all of Boulder.

You asked people to tear into your theory and see what works and what doesnt.

Things that I think you have right:
Use of body fat to fuel the changes.
Source of the infection may be some bad-ass version of some other virus/bacteria/whatever.
Radon Labs is involved.

Things that need more work:
Heavy metals connection
infrared vision
virus turning into a parasite in the presence of Omega-3s (what?)

Alright, maybe i wasn't clear, and i hold my hand up to this i am Dyslexic and getting my point across isn't actually the strongest point for me, so let me go through what you said here and boil down to it a bit better.

AIDs: the only reason i referenced AIDs in the first place is because its transferred via blood and saliva and can infect cuts and open wounds etc. how the zombies threw up blood and turned people and how it infected saul with some blood. that's the only point i was trying to make.

Radon Labs: I honestly don't think anymore they are involved not unless Radon Labs is a big international thing like Umbrella is in the resident evil series, i point towards the fact we have evidence of "riots" happening around the world at the same time.


Heavy metals: yeah i get it needs more work having a small fragment of a bullet which is enducing a small poison is a long shot i know but i was just throwing it out there as food for thought. (by the way yes i do believe in genetic immunity, its fact, it exists. what i was trying to say was in regards to the story it would be too 'convenient' if there was someone who was immune to it, now the whole blood line connection making two people immune, yes possible, completely do-able I'm just saying the placing of it, is to convenient if that's the case.)

that honestly would feel like a cop-out to me and KC is a fantastic writer who's done nothing but bought us brilliance chapter after chapter after chapter, i just think its something else we need to explore

Body Fat and Source Of Infection:
yeah, body fat I've made my point on, glad you agree the source of the infection we'd probably have to research
microbiology a whole bunch

Heat Vision: i never once thought of it like that, you are completely right, it is a flawed idea, but again i was just trying to stimulate a different chain of thought about it.

Viral Parasite vs Omega 3: yeah that was a stretch, just speculation.


so do you then think the celiac disease has some kind of credibility? personally i think i need to sit down and just compare the times to when Riley said it would happen and when Tommy turned.

[PhysicsLB]

Radon Labs: Im thinking more along the lines of it being the source of mutation in the zeds (leapers/behemoths/little ones). Either in an accidental leak of something (cracks), or a base of operations for whoever is actually behind all this (assuming there IS a someone, which considering the global scale like you stated, seems unlikely). Im leaning more towards option one because these special types only seem to be in LA. Both the colony AND Boulder only ever saw ordinary, run-of-the-mill biters. And something one of the army guys said: "They're like the soldier version of biters" (talking about the Little Ones). It really makes me wonder who/what is responsible for them.

Heavy Metals: The presence of heavy metals has been shown to slow or even retard cetain infections (primarily looking at silver and it's various compunds), so I would say it's easily up for debate. As far as convenience of genetic immunity, that's completely dependent on whether the antibiotics had no actual affect. And as far as convenience goes...there have been ALOT of convenient circumstances throughtout this story. Also, to me it doesn't feel like a cop-out. More like an eventual outcome.

Celiac Disease: I can't be sure whether it would have an affect or not, so I can't rule it out. The problem is we dont know much surrounding Tommy's situation. We dont know if he was receiving special food or just eating different quantities of what was available. As far as I could tell, they had mostly frozen/canned foods like veggies, as well as processed stuff like cheetos, which he couldnt eat. What about body builders who have a similar high-protein diet? What about vegans? There are just too many unknowns here at this point, but why even have a character with this disease if it wasnt related?

[Drogon Malice]

Radon Labs: Im thinking more along the lines of it being the source of mutation in the zeds (leapers/behemoths/little ones). Either in an accidental leak of something (cracks), or a base of operations for whoever is actually behind all this (assuming there IS a someone, which considering the global scale like you stated, seems unlikely). Im leaning more towards option one because these special types only seem to be in LA. Both the colony AND Boulder only ever saw ordinary, run-of-the-mill biters. And something one of the army guys said: "They're like the soldier version of biters" (talking about the Little Ones). It really makes me wonder who/what is responsible for them.

Heavy Metals: The presence of heavy metals has been shown to slow or even retard cetain infections (primarily looking at silver and it's various compunds), so I would say it's easily up for debate. As far as convenience of genetic immunity, that's completely dependent on whether the antibiotics had no actual affect. And as far as convenience goes...there have been ALOT of convenient circumstances throughtout this story. Also, to me it doesn't feel like a cop-out. More like an eventual outcome.

Celiac Disease: I can't be sure whether it would have an affect or not, so I can't rule it out. The problem is we dont know much surrounding Tommy's situation. We dont know if he was receiving special food or just eating different quantities of what was available. As far as I could tell, they had mostly frozen/canned foods like veggies, as well as processed stuff like cheetos, which he couldnt eat. What about body builders who have a similar high-protein diet? What about vegans? There are just too many unknowns here at this point, but why even have a character with this disease if it wasnt related?

Paragraph 1: Radon Labs: Yes i actually think you maybe on to something there, i think Kalani said something like "you we didn't have these other types like you do here out in hawaii" or something, i digress though. the mutations for the different types COULD be explained by Radon Labs, now i know that's specifically what you mean i have to agree a little bit

Paragraph 2: yeah, a EVENTUAL overall genetic immunity for the species will eventually happen, I'm not saying it won't, i assume that's what you meant, i can see it happening, but it would just wouldn't feel right to me is Saul's DNA was the savior of humanity or something daft like that. that's just me. KC has written everything in a very specific way we will probably only know in the very ends of the last chapter.

Paragraph 3: well Kelly told Pegs when they first arrived at the tower that he mainly eats a lot of greens, Pegs did re-iterate this to Micheal but then again meat doesn't have gluten so meat and two veg would be a common meal i would imagine for good old Tommy so just different quantities of what was available. I'm not saying it gives him immunity, just a resistance. then again to find out more I'd have to analyze the times of injury's vs turnings to really make an analysis of that.

[YetAnotherBloodyCheek]

It is a nice working thesis, but - as far as I know, Tanya conducted various complete blood count (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Complete_blood_count) examinations. It appears to be a standard procedure and I guess she should have found anomalies provided that metals are involved in any case. She should have been able to detect variations in the milligram range. However, Tanya could have simply lied to everyone but I would regard this as highly unlikely.

[PhysicsLB]

P 2: This is essentially what i've been saying all along.

P 3: I understand your ideas on iron levels in his body & resistance to zedism. What im saying is that there really isnt enough information to come up with anything but pure conjecture. When you figure in rationing, availability of types of food, any special stores he may have been given (all pieces of information we are either missing, or woefully uninfromed on), the only significant difference in diet (that we can be reasonably sure of) between tommy and everyone else is what he WASN'T eating: carbohydrates, mostly. So, yes, iron intake may very well play a part but given the same information one could also conclude that carbohydrates may speed up the process. My point is that it's really tough to even theorize about this without more info. So i guess my advice would be to look at the different quirks/habits of those characters who DO turn, and see if we can find a common thread to tie it to your theory.

[Drogon Malice]

P 2: This is essentially what i've been saying all along.

P 3: I understand your ideas on iron levels in his body & resistance to zedism. What im saying is that there really isnt enough information to come up with anything but pure conjecture. When you figure in rationing, availability of types of food, any special stores he may have been given (all pieces of information we are either missing, or woefully uninfromed on), the only significant difference in diet (that we can be reasonably sure of) between tommy and everyone else is what he WASN'T eating: carbohydrates, mostly. So, yes, iron intake may very well play a part but given the same information one could also conclude that carbohydrates may speed up the process. My point is that it's really tough to even theorize about this without more info. So i guess my advice would be to look at the different quirks/habits of those characters who DO turn, and see if we can find a common thread to tie it to your theory.

incidentally its worth mentioning i am a large guy and I'm in the process of loosing weight..... in a nut shell Carbohydrates = Body fat i don't have the book to hand i actually lent it out to my trainer, but in the book they controlled caloric intakes for 3 different groups and ones with carbohydrates gained body fat, when i get the book back i can quote it properly. figured that was worth mentioning, although maybe researching into wheat and wheat based products we can find a potential source for where the infection has come from, I'll put that on my "TO DO LIST"

CURRENTLY ON MY TO DO LIST:
Compare times of changes throughout the series
Listen to Tanya's analysis
and finally analyze quirks of turners to see if my theory holds water.


what would equate to a quirk when someone turns?

[PhysicsLB]

Some examples:
Are they a smoker or non-smoker?
Did they ever eat anything special?
Were they exposed to chemicals/vapors/anything out of the ordinary?
How were they turned? Bite? Scratch? Guts Splattering?

[Drogon Malice]

Randomly i have a question, Given the Mallers have probably more first hand experience with these creatures, do you think that Scratch being one of the longest established members of the mallers will have a testimony at some point, her own log or something which will hold that one vital piece of information which will put it all in place?

just personal opinons at this point, i personally think it would be pretty hard core if that happened.

[Osiris]

DAMMIT! I knew I was forgetting something.

Reading this thread tomorrow. I swear.

[Witch_Doctor]

Randomly i have a question, Given the Mallers have probably more first hand experience with these creatures, do you think that Scratch being one of the longest established members of the mallers will have a testimony at some point, her own log or something which will hold that one vital piece of information which will put it all in place?

just personal opinons at this point, i personally think it would be pretty hard core if that happened.

Yep. She seams to have been around for far too long to just be a nuisance.

[Drogon Malice]

Yep. She seams to have been around for far too long to just be a nuisance.

that's what I've been thinking

[Bakkie-Pleur]

I'm not sure if this is going to help, but When Tanya first arrives at the tower they talk about the person that wAs infected, but took a very long time to change. She also mentions that they used the heaviest doses of antibiotics on him and that if saul was infected he would have turned by now.. i'm not sure if she mentioned anything else about the the person that took a very long time to turn, like always I listened to it while getting to sleep.. I wil listen to the episode again to find out, if I don't fall asleep again ;)

[Drogon Malice]

I'm not sure if this is going to help, but When Tanya first arrives at the tower they talk about the person that wAs infected, but took a very long time to change. She also mentions that they used the heaviest doses of antibiotics on him and that if saul was infected he would have turned by now.. i'm not sure if she mentioned anything else about the the person that took a very long time to turn, like always I listened to it while getting to sleep.. I wil listen to the episode again to find out, if I don't fall asleep again ;)


yeah she said that the others in the colony killed him off because they were paranoid or something if memory serves

[Robzombie]

no no no, they had to "put him down" because they knew the drugs weren't doing shit.

[Drogon Malice]

if that's the case, then Saul couldn't of been a slow turner, it must of just been blood poisoning, its a slim to none chance that Saul AND Tonya by genetic default are immune to it, if he was immune, wouldn't he then fought off the disease and got better on his own after the operation?

Assumption: which now means if there is a difference in time it takes to turn between normals and people with celiac disease then this could be proven as it would provide it with evidence. am i correct in this assumption?

[PhysicsLB]

You seem to be confusing Zedism with blood poisoning. They are two separate things with two separate causes.

We are postulating that Zedism is virulent or bacterial in nature. This can't be confirmed until we determine how Tanya and Saul avoided turning.

Blood poisoning was actually a clever bit of writing. It's bacterial in nature, meaning it can only be treated with antibiotics. No one is immune to blood poisoning. What this does, is keeps the source of Zedism a mystery. If its bacterial, the antibiotics could have wiped it out. If its viral, then its possible saul was immune and only dying from blood poisoning. So in essence, it gives us a nice bit of drama concerning an "infected" comrade without revealing anything we didnt already know about the disease.

Also, i think you are misunderstanding genetic immunity. If either saul or tanya is immune on a genetic level, then there is a VERY GOOD CHANCE they are both immune. In all likelihood, saul inheirited his immunity from tanya...that's how these things work.

[LiamKerrington]

If either saul or tanya is immune on a genetic level, then there is a VERY GOOD CHANCE they are both immune. In all likelihood, saul inheirited his immunity from tanya...that's how these things work.

Unless Saul's father's genes are dominant and would nullify the genetically based zed-immunity from Tanya's genes ... If things were so simple, then either both parents need to have the genetic disposition for this kind of immunity, or Tanya's immunity must be dominant in order to have the given effect on Saul as well.

But after all: We don't know if Tanya is immun. Sure. She had bite-marks. And she got bitten by a slow turner. But was the slow turner already capable of infecting its prey? Or was the zed-agent in it not ripe yet when it bit Tanya ... ? This, I think, is a very important question in my eyes ...

Good night, best wishes!
Liam

[PhysicsLB]

And really that's the whole point behind how it was written. It adds drama without removing any of the mystery. We can sit here and suppose all day but we really have zero information to actually go on.

The key pieces of evidence here are:
1. Were they actually infected? both situations were through vectors that definitely aren't ideal for the transfer of the disease.

2. Bacterial or viral? The first question is also kind of moot until we determine whether the pathogen was cured via antibiotics or immunity.

Assumptions:
1. If they were both infected...
a. and the antibiotics worked: then they will work on anyone, except those who are already turned.
b. they were immune: Then it's hereditary (assuming dominant trait, which is the likeliest case). And everyone else is screwed.

2. If they were not: we got trolled.

[Malador]

Exposure to a contagion is not necessary for individuals to have an immunity to it. Heterozygitic (recessive) sickle cell sickness, which causes no illness in the subject, grants immunity to malaria, since the protozoa that causes it can't live inside of the red blood cells. The Duffy antigen, another genetic mutation, causes increased threats from some sickness, but immunity to malaria as well as a very high resistance to AIDS. All that is necessary is the right genetic abnormality, or exposure to a virus with a similar enough vector that the body has a way to fight it. Edward Jenner developed the first vaccine for smallpox by infecting people with cow pox, after he noticed that those who contracted it never got small pox.

As for Tommy's celiac disease, one of it's symptoms are vitamin and mineral deficiencies, due to the inflammation of the small intestine. This would lead to his iron count being lower than normal, and leads me to believe that a small area of exposure (the cut) to the zedogen lead to his slow turn rate.

[scbubba]

Dang! Look at all the science going on in here. Very cool stuff!

I like the conversation about immunity vs drug treatment for Saul's sickness and recovery. The question I have after following this thread of discussion is "how does Saul's behavior at ground zero factor into this?"

That is, his lack of a response to whatever it was that made everyone else have such a violent and immediate reaction might affect how we think about it. For example, if the meds are keeping Zedism (love that term) at bay, then shouldn't Saul have some reaction to the Ground Zero stuff, even if it is a mild/lesser one, since it would have to get into his body and then be attacked by the antibiotics? I'm not a medical professional and i didn't stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night, so I may be missing a lot about how this stuff works....

Back to your intelligent discussions...

[LiamKerrington]

Ground Zero and Saul ... Scbubba: This is a very good question ... I could imagine a couple of reasons why Saul was not affected:

a) maybe his genes, according to the above discussion, simply won't allow the Zedism-factor to connect with his body and biochemical procedures;
b) or maybe the Ground Zero contamination interacts with Saul'S biochemical procedures, but it does not affect him at all;
c) or maybe the antibiotics stimulate Saul's body to produce certain hormons or pheromons which repell the Zed-agent in the air of Ground Zero;
d) or any combination of a) through c) or variation of them.

It really is hard to tell. I so much hope that Tanya will be able to produce some more serious blood-examination - especially now that she has plenty of zombie-stuff available. She will be able to make the destinctions and draw the proper conclusions.

Best wishes!
Liam

[PhysicsLB]

Again, crafty writing on Kc's part. We don't know if saul is unaffected by ground zero due to anibiotics or inheirant immunity. Adding to the mystery without giving anything away. It's really impressive.

Also, Malador, thanks for bringing up the bit about genetic abnormalities. That's something that hasnt been considered yet. It very well could be a physical difference that kept him from turning.

So since nothing about the cause/possible immunity/cure can be determined without more information, what about ideas on what actually happening to those that ARE infected? We're seeing rapid physical mutation, coupled with mental degredation. Is there anything that has abilities close to this in the real world? How are these changes taking place? Is it a DNA weaponizing agent a-la prometheus? Or could it possibly be a parasite like resident evil 4 (i realize this throws our immunity theories out the window...)?

Ideas guys? Lets put some out there and try to narrow things down with science and stuff.

[LiamKerrington]

Again, crafty writing on Kc's part. We don't know if saul is unaffected by ground zero due to anibiotics or inheirant immunity. Adding to the mystery without giving anything away. It's really impressive.

Also, Malador, thanks for bringing up the bit about genetic abnormalities. That's something that hasnt been considered yet. It very well could be a physical difference that kept him from turning.

So since nothing about the cause/possible immunity/cure can be determined without more information, what about ideas on what actually happening to those that ARE infected? We're seeing rapid physical mutation, coupled with mental degredation. Is there anything that has abilities close to this in the real world? How are these changes taking place? Is it a DNA weaponizing agent a-la prometheus? Or could it possibly be a parasite like resident evil 4 (i realize this throws our immunity theories out the window...)?

Ideas guys? Lets put some out there and try to narrow things down with science and stuff.

Only rabies. I am too less of a medic or scientist to give a proper answer to your last question. But rabies ... That's at least the excuse for the Zedism in other Zombie-Stories (like WWZ) ...

[PhysicsLB]

Rabies was my initial thought as well, but the specialization of certain Zeds seems to point to something else.

It's possible that ground zero has something to do with it, perhaps there is a third agent involved for the special infected? But what would cause drastic physical mutation simply by being exposed to it?

[Malador]

I had thought the same thing, since the survivors in the outlying areas had no contact with anything but biters. The only things I can think of that ground zero had that the other areas didn't were Ink, the chasms, and Radon labs.

[Witch_Doctor]

Rabies was my initial thought as well, but the specialization of certain Zeds seems to point to something else.

It's possible that ground zero has something to do with it, perhaps there is a third agent involved for the special infected? But what would cause drastic physical mutation simply by being exposed to it?

Yep, either a third agent or some other special conditions unique to Ground Zero and possibly other hot spots. I keep wondering what Kalani meant by the Hawaiian zombies being meaner and nastier than the ones in L.A. (Even after being ticked, captured and held by L.A. zombies, and even seeing a Behemoth first hand.) never mentioned any special kinds in HA.

[Witch_Doctor]

A couple of times characters remarked that the special ones, Behemoths and Little Ones, look like they were never human.

[Tar Heel Fan]

Thanks for this interesting thread! I wanted to throw a detail out there into the discussion to see if this matters at all. What might be the significance within these thoughts of the way alcohol fends off the zombized attackers? I'm partial to the idea that what has saved Saul and Tanya has been their antibiotics, which might point more to a bacterial infection that is spread, primarily, through the blood (and maybe also through saliva). Perhaps in its earliest stages, it was airborne, also, which could be the connection to Radon Labs (more on that in a moment). Alcohol does kill most bacteria, and if this bacterial infection has some sort of sentient properties within a body, perhaps it sensed inherently that the alcohol, though not a complete threat to the body it was in, would not allow the bacteria to spread (and if ingested could harm part of the infection within the body in which it was living. Stronger antibiotics might help resist its spread within a body, such as Saul and Tanya. A question, though: does anyone know - could an antibiotic treatment also serve as a vaccination against future bacterial attacks? Or was Saul "immune" to the ground zero sight only because he was still on his IV drip?

[PhysicsLB]

Tar Heel:
The alcohol blocks out the smell of human pheramones. A scent camo most likely. Scent seems to be the primary sense for your typical biter, with human pheromones creating a kind of "frenzy" similar to sharks who smell blood in the water.

Your point about Saul at ground zero is something that i alluded to in a previous post: we don't know if it's inheirant immunity or if it was his IV Drip that kept him from feeling the effects.

[PhysicsLB]

Witch_Doctor: Any thoughts on where those variants originated from? Let's not forget the runners and jumpers, and even TOWTM who DO seem to be previously human.

Of the ones that dont appear human (D.A.H.), is it a combination of zedism and the third agent or the third agent alone that creates these creatures?

Perhaps the third agent changes the original infection vector and TOWTM has figured out a way to utilize that?

[Witch_Doctor]

Thanks for this interesting thread! I wanted to throw a detail out there into the discussion to see if this matters at all. What might be the significance within these thoughts of the way alcohol fends off the zombized attackers? I'm partial to the idea that what has saved Saul and Tanya has been their antibiotics, which might point more to a bacterial infection that is spread, primarily, through the blood (and maybe also through saliva). Perhaps in its earliest stages, it was airborne, also, which could be the connection to Radon Labs (more on that in a moment). Alcohol does kill most bacteria, and if this bacterial infection has some sort of sentient properties within a body, perhaps it sensed inherently that the alcohol, though not a complete threat to the body it was in, would not allow the bacteria to spread (and if ingested could harm part of the infection within the body in which it was living. Stronger antibiotics might help resist its spread within a body, such as Saul and Tanya. A question, though: does anyone know - could an antibiotic treatment also serve as a vaccination against future bacterial attacks? Or was Saul "immune" to the ground zero sight only because he was still on his IV drip?


Witch_Doctor: Any thoughts on where those variants originated from? Let's not forget the runners and jumpers, and even TOWTM who DO seem to be previously human.

Of the ones that dont appear human (D.A.H.), is it a combination of zedism and the third agent or the third agent alone that creates these creatures?

Perhaps the third agent changes the original infection vector and TOWTM has figured out a way to utilize that?

I wondered at some point if alcohol somehow inhibited the infection here are a couple of old posts.


Forgiveness given :)

ALCOHOL!

There are a number of instances where we suspect that someone MAY become infected. To add to the mystery, we are denied information to conclude that person X was absolutely exposed. In most, not all, of those instances alcohol was involved.

1) Riley and Angel in the stack of bodies at the arena. They doused themselves with wine prior to that scene.
2) Saul getting shot by Burt, possibly through Tommy. Saul was the drunkest dude at the party.
3) Tanya dragged by Randy. No drinking involved. She is the outlier. This doesn't disprove the hypothesis but highlights that there could be unique circumstances concerning her that is not readily known or understood.
4) Riley on the farm. She was tore-up from the floor-up drunk. While Kelly and Michael searched for her Kelly made a number of comments that Riley was not alone.
a) The tracks Kelly and Michael follow diverge into two tracks.
b) Kelly says, "The tracks might not be hers."
c) Riley is STILL at the Weed. I originally suspected that Riley was being held for so long at the Weed Hospital because they discovered bites, but now we can say that that was likely not the case.


My point isn't that the alcohol's smell masks our heroes from the zombies but that the massive amount of alcohol in Saul's and Riley's bodies either prevented or assuaged any infection they may have gotten from an exposure to zombie blood or drool. I thought it was well established and widely accepted that the smell of alcohol masks human scent from the zombies. During the war KC pretty must nailed home the fact the Saul was drunk. A lot of story time was used focusing on Saul intoxication. Each episode is 30 minutes or less so that would be an expensive 'filler' scene. Having one less soldier to fight wouldn't have mattered since they had no weapons. Riley was established as a lush in season one. She being a wino was only significant twice. Once to clear her suspicion of shooting Pippin, the other so that she could wander away in a drunken stupor, only to be found be Michael while Kelly continuously screams, "... these tacks look like they're going the other way!....Michael, the tracks might not be hers.... She's covered in (?)..."
What, Kelly? What was she covered in? Ding dang it, Michael! Why do you always interrupt people when they might have something important to say?
Check this out: Michael in Hawaii, December 7 1941....
Mike, "What are you looking at through your binoculars?"
Random Sailor, " I don't believe it but I think I see..."
Michael, " Just what the hell are you getting at!!??"
Sailor, "You know what? Forget it!! I'm going back to the Arizona!"


As for the special types of Zombies, I speculate that ground zero has something to do with them.

In Last Dying Breath(?) C.J. points out that the reason that there are Special zombies in L.A. and not near the Colony could be the presence of Gound Zero.
In R & R, Kalani tells Saul that Ground Zero is a place where C.J.'s convoys would return with reports of strange creature, some that can run fast, jump high...
In Last Dying Breath, C.J. reveals that Ground Zero alone, is enough to turn a person into a zombie.


TOWTM seems to be able to control the Special Ones or D.A.H.s (Love that term) but there seems to be a more personal connection between him and the Inklings. Like, he's had some affect on their creation.

But, if the D.A.H.s are products of G.Z., which is a hot spot, then why didn't Kalani mention any on the Big Island? Maybe he just never saw any?
Any thoughts, guys?

[PhysicsLB]

What kind of time frame was it between the initial outbreak and first encounters with the DAHs in LA? Maybe they left hawaii before they could encounter any?

[LiamKerrington]

What kind of time frame was it between the initial outbreak and first encounters with the DAHs in LA? Maybe they left hawaii before they could encounter any?

It depends which zombs you consider DAHs. If we stick with the descriptions within the show, then Behemoths (first encountered in late June), Little Ones (first encountered and acknowledged at the military reserve base in late July, but already heard but not recognized at the Arena around late June and early July), and maybe Jumpers because of their very different looking (early July) would be the measure; according to that the DAHs showed up the first time a month after the outbreak.

According to CJ the crazy and weird zombies showed up around ground zero, although she did not mention when exactly; but considering that she and her team did reconnaissance before her Tower fell (early to mid June), then those DAH might have appeared as early as during the second half of May - or even earlier.

Based on what we know and what we can assume things remain kind of vague; but I also think it is quite safe to assume that the DAHs evolved early in the zombocalypse, but they did not come from Hawaii ...

Best wishes!
Liam

[Witch_Doctor]

What kind of time frame was it between the initial outbreak and first encounters with the DAHs in LA? Maybe they left hawaii before they could encounter any?

Our group's first encounter with a D.A.H. seems to be in Chapter 5, when they are chased by the runners. This is after Burt, Saul and Lizzy have investigated the ambush site which is likely the same one that was from C.J.'s tower. If the ambushed convoy was from C.J.'s tower then they could have been attacked in the rain (as mentioned by Samantha in Purgatory) which would be the same rain storm that took place before Lizzy, Burt and Saul left the tower to find fuel for the Generator. (Saul says, "... and its raining in zombie land.")

This would coincide with Kalani's arrival to L.A. as he arrived Shortly after C.J.'s doomed convoy is attacked.

In a nutshell, the first appearance of the D.A.H.'s to our group likely took place after Kalani reached L.A. BUT C.J.'s group may have encountered them earlier, as Kalani learned about them second-hand.

[Drogon Malice]

i do have a theory about this sickness what ever it is, uses body fats, there is a difference between transfats and theres another type of fat. (i believe transfats are what make you obease, if thats wrong i got it right in another theory thread of mine) more leaner people with more body fat become bohemmoths, leaner muscles could become jumpers, etc its all there, food for thought for you folks, i've been away a while, glad this thread is still going. i'm not sure what post it is, i sugest a rummage through the theory posts.

[Witch_Doctor]

i do have a theory about this sickness what ever it is, uses body fats, there is a difference between transfats and theres another type of fat. (i believe transfats are what make you obease, if thats wrong i got it right in another theory thread of mine) more leaner people with more body fat become bohemmoths, leaner muscles could become jumpers, etc its all there, food for thought for you folks, i've been away a while, glad this thread is still going. i'm not sure what post it is, i sugest a rummage through the theory posts.

But this is L.A., shouldn't there be more Jumpers and Behemoths?

[Drogon Malice]

maybe being a jumper came from having a greater athletic ability then adverage, perhaps someone who's been runnign and jumping thier whole lives or people who were training to be athletes, infact is it just me or have we only ever seen 1 jumper in the whole series so far? i'm probably wrong

[Zombiebiscuit]

I think they have a creator some thing said that with a pause that frankenstiens the best traits into certain types of creations

[Malador]

I know that he is scatterbrained, but skittles mentioned that he stopped seeing Jumpers, that he thought they weren't around anymore. This is odd considering that a faster more agile infected should be able to get to people the regulars wouldn't, so they shouldn't have starved off.

[Drogon Malice]

I know that he is scatterbrained, but skittles mentioned that he stopped seeing Jumpers, that he thought they weren't around anymore. This is odd considering that a faster more agile infected should be able to get to people the regulars wouldn't, so they shouldn't have starved off.


maybe its a case of they are also evolving on a rapid celluar level or something so when the jumpers have finished jumping about and eating people and getting high up and such, what else is there to do, if thier food source is depleted by their optimal hunting pattern is it a case they litrally died off. Jumpers strike me more as the kind that would die out that way where as the tattooed zombie and the regular zombies seemed to be more organised, the way they came in and took people when Datu was Captured and the fact they can lay traps and even hunt and out wit normal alive people, they are definately organised and capable of indipendent learning and self intelligence, dispite thier pack mentality, this is also something i mentioned in a previous posting somewhere.

i thinking is a parasidic genetic virus, because you can have a genetic virus, you can also have a parasidic virus, so why not mix them together for this. it fits with my body fat theory too.

[YetAnotherBloodyCheek]

maybe its a case of they are also evolving on a rapid celluar level or something so when the jumpers have finished jumping about and eating people and getting high up and such, what else is there to do, if thier food source is depleted by their optimal hunting pattern is it a case they litrally died off. Jumpers strike me more as the kind that would die out that way where as the tattooed zombie and the regular zombies seemed to be more organised, the way they came in and took people when Datu was Captured and the fact they can lay traps and even hunt and out wit normal alive people, they are definately organised and capable of indipendent learning and self intelligence, dispite thier pack mentality, this is also something i mentioned in a previous posting somewhere.

i thinking is a parasidic genetic virus, because you can have a genetic virus, you can also have a parasidic virus, so why not mix them together for this. it fits with my body fat theory too.

Hm, I somehow do not buy the virus infection thing. I mean, Tanya simply should have found at least some evidence while conducting / as a result of the autopsy. Cf.: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laboratory_diagnosis_of_viral_infections. But that is just my opinion.

[scbubba]

Loving this thread. Just had to do some catch up on it.

On the DAH stuff, I think we might lay the Little Ones to rest on DAH since so many humans have become Little Ones in Season 3. Well the original 12(?) might have come from something else, it would seem odd that humans turn into exact replicas of them...

We never see Runners or Behemoths turn anyone. Tommy got turned by Jumper guts, if I recall correctly.

I think Behemoths have the best chance at not starting as people. They seem to have had the most differences from all the others.

As for general Infection theory, I like the alcohol angle. Esp. for Saul's non-reaction to his lead Zed injection. What if the alcohol managed to give thin out the Zed stuff and his damn good immune system was able to make some sort of antibodies. Similar to the way vaccines work. then we find out that Tanya is a closet lush who was also hammered when the slow turner bit her. So she gets the same antibodies (immune system like Saul's - where do you think he got it from?) Of course, we have no inclination that Tanya does/did drink.

Anyway, Saul obviously has something beyond just being drunk at the party in his favor - otherwise Ground Zero would have affected him. So we're back to a damned mystery!

Need to go back and check the LO autopsy episode. I don't think it mentioned Tanya getting into the brain of the LO and seeing what was in there or running tests on it. That's where I think the Zed stuff is focused. How it alters the whole body with no trace in the blood stream though... no clue. Radiation? Aliens? We'll have to wait and see I guess....

[YetAnotherBloodyCheek]

Loving this thread. Just had to do some catch up on it.

On the DAH stuff, I think we might lay the Little Ones to rest on DAH since so many humans have become Little Ones in Season 3. Well the original 12(?) might have come from something else, it would seem odd that humans turn into exact replicas of them...

We never see Runners or Behemoths turn anyone. Tommy got turned by Jumper guts, if I recall correctly.

I think Behemoths have the best chance at not starting as people. They seem to have had the most differences from all the others.

As for general Infection theory, I like the alcohol angle. Esp. for Saul's non-reaction to his lead Zed injection. What if the alcohol managed to give thin out the Zed stuff and his damn good immune system was able to make some sort of antibodies. Similar to the way vaccines work. then we find out that Tanya is a closet lush who was also hammered when the slow turner bit her. So she gets the same antibodies (immune system like Saul's - where do you think he got it from?) Of course, we have no inclination that Tanya does/did drink.

Anyway, Saul obviously has something beyond just being drunk at the party in his favor - otherwise Ground Zero would have affected him. So we're back to a damned mystery!

Need to go back and check the LO autopsy episode. I don't think it mentioned Tanya getting into the brain of the LO and seeing what was in there or running tests on it. That's where I think the Zed stuff is focused. How it alters the whole body with no trace in the blood stream though... no clue. Radiation? Aliens? We'll have to wait and see I guess....

Or the whole thing was caused by genetically enhanced food by Mosanto?

http://www.pi-news.net/wp/uploads/2013/06/Monsanto-440x174.jpg

innovation - humans to zombies
collaboration - smart ones
speed - fast ones

And even Hugh Grant (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugh_Grant_%28Manager%29) looks a bit like Pinstripes. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1d/Hugh_Grant_Monsanto.jpg/396px-Hugh_Grant_Monsanto.jpg

[PhysicsLB]

What if each different zombie is a different strain of the original infection?

The vector is evolving with each infection, which creates these offshoot species. This would explain why jumpers disappeared: they have a higher caloric cost to function, but their ability to find prey dwindled as the population of humans dropped, leading to their "extinction". This could also explain why we weren't seeing anything like behemoths very early on, and why runners and jumpers (essentially souped up biters) were the first specials to show up. Now we have the "Little Ones", the cutting-edge in biological manipulation. They hold all the best traits of all the previous species: speed, agility, toughness, and intelligence! And they self propagate! The only thing any crazed evil genius would ever need!

In all seriousness though, it appears the "virus" is trying to improve the host body and, by extension, it's propagation through accelerated evolution. A "trial and error" of different assets. Runners and jumpers showed that imrpoved athleticism was effective in the early stages of a crumbled society. Behemoths showed that better toughness and strength made it easier to bust through defenses, and survive prolonged exposure to a settlement. The smart ones have obvious advantages, and the Little Ones combine all these aspects.

[YetAnotherBloodyCheek]

What if each different zombie is a different strain of the original infection?

The vector is evolving with each infection, which creates these offshoot species. This would explain why jumpers disappeared: they have a higher caloric cost to function, but their ability to find prey dwindled as the population of humans dropped, leading to their "extinction". This could also explain why we weren't seeing anything like behemoths very early on, and why runners and jumpers (essentially souped up biters) were the first specials to show up. Now we have the "Little Ones", the cutting-edge in biological manipulation. They hold all the best traits of all the previous species: speed, agility, toughness, and intelligence! And they self propagate! The only thing any crazed evil genius would ever need!

In all seriousness though, it appears the "virus" is trying to improve the host body and, by extension, it's propagation through accelerated evolution. A "trial and error" of different assets. Runners and jumpers showed that imrpoved athleticism was effective in the early stages of a crumbled society. Behemoths showed that better toughness and strength made it easier to bust through defenses, and survive prolonged exposure to a settlement. The smart ones have obvious advantages, and the Little Ones combine all these aspects.

In short: Darwin was right. :D

[scbubba]

In short: Darwin was right. :D

I'm still holding on to the Evil Genius theory of all the different Zeds.... But for the same reasons listed. Evil Genius (EG for short) tampered and got Runners. Tampered some more and got Jumpers. Some more tweaks by EG and we got Behemoths.
EG decides to bring it all in and stop playing around. EG combines the athletic abilities of Runners and Jumpers with the strength and toughness of Behemoths -> Little Ones.

So, skip Darwin and go on to Intelligent Design (albeit an Evil Intelligence.. mwahahaha) :tinfoil:

[Drogon Malice]

I'm still holding on to the Evil Genius theory of all the different Zeds.... But for the same reasons listed. Evil Genius (EG for short) tampered and got Runners. Tampered some more and got Jumpers. Some more tweaks by EG and we got Behemoths.
EG decides to bring it all in and stop playing around. EG combines the athletic abilities of Runners and Jumpers with the strength and toughness of Behemoths -> Little Ones.

So, skip Darwin and go on to Intelligent Design (albeit an Evil Intelligence.. mwahahaha) :tinfoil:

if there is a evil genius then someone in a position of power must of known about it, to an extent this only supports my "Victor is a CIA Agent" theory :p

but instead of speculating what it is and all that, lets stick to the raw facts, how does this thing react and behave, is it a virus, it is a contagious genetic virus, etc so on, when we started talking about saul and tonya being genetically immune we got off topic, lets sit down and work out what it could be or be a varient of.

who is immune and who isn't has no baring on the virus at all. it was even covered in this thread that Tonya said "if he was a slow turner, he would of been dead by now" which means its likely he just had blood posioning, WHICH is what saul got treated for, it makes sense, Tonya wouldn't know how to treat someone who was infected because the previous drugs weren't working. thats why the other slow turner got killed off by the colony.

now don't get me wrong i'm not saying that to be right or anything but i've always thought it was "too convienent" that someone would be immune, YES I KNOW HOW IMMUNUTY WORKS! (for the record i already knew so the fact i had it explaiend to me twice on this thread pissed me off i must admit, but i digress)

the point i am trying to make here is that to work out more accurately whats been doing what and who goes where would simply be a case of doing some kind of basic profile for the virus, for example, why is it only transferable through blood like an STD? does that have any bearing of its profile, it may be possible.

ALSO i have a random question, has anyone actually ever printed off a map and listened to the show and plotted out the origon source and compared that to where radon labs is on the map?

if not i voulinteer!

[Drogon Malice]

Or the whole thing was caused by genetically enhanced food by Mosanto?

http://www.pi-news.net/wp/uploads/2013/06/Monsanto-440x174.jpg

innovation - humans to zombies
collaboration - smart ones
speed - fast ones

And even Hugh Grant (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugh_Grant_%28Manager%29) looks a bit like Pinstripes. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1d/Hugh_Grant_Monsanto.jpg/396px-Hugh_Grant_Monsanto.jpg

thats actually a horrifying thought O.O

[Malador]

The approximated location of Radon Labs is on the opposite side of the tower from ground zero. According to the estimated times the infestation origin.
2610
This is what I came up with form the show and the wiki, and while it doesn't link Radon to the outbreak, it is possible something there lead to the appearance of the DAH varieties.

[Witch_Doctor]

I was wondering if Radon Labs' location was mentioned anywhere. Did Burt say it was near his shop?

Another thing that bugs me is how do the smart ones fit in with the other special ones. Burt speculated that being a smart human made you a smart zombie. Skittles re-emphasized this when he warns against going near hospitals and 'book places' because of the brains. Therefore smartness seems to be a trait carried over from before infection.

The special ones appear to come from Ground Zero, as expressed by Kalani and C.J. But the runners, jumpers and behemoths have traits that EXCEED those of regular humans! The smart ones are just not as dumb as the other Zs. They don't have super human Khan Noonian Singh-like intelligence.

[Malador]

Burt never came out and said that radon labs was near his shop, but he knew about it, and they saw it on their way back from his shop to the tower, so I approximated that it was west of his shop and east of the tower.

[YetAnotherBloodyCheek]

Call me a moron, but the whole Radon Labs thing starts to sound a bit too wishful thinking-like. We need better evidence than that. If z-day was set up, the last priority would be laying out ID badge breadcrumbs.

[Malador]

I don't think that it was mentioned in passing, it seems like it should have something to do with the whole thing. Either way, with *Possible Spoiler* Michael promising to take the fight to them *End spoiler** we should see a fair amount of light being shone upon the subject.

[Witch_Doctor]

Call me a moron, but the whole Radon Labs thing starts to sound a bit too wishful thinking-like. We need better evidence than that. If z-day was set up, the last priority would be laying out ID badge breadcrumbs.


I don't think that it was mentioned in passing, it seems like it should have something to do with the whole thing. Either way, with *Possible Spoiler* Michael promising to take the fight to them *End spoiler** we should see a fair amount of light being shone upon the subject.


Dang it, you both make good points!

On a side note, when did They mention passing Radon Labs?

[Malador]

I seem to recall Burt mentioning the lab when they killed the smart one that attacked them on the roof that Radon Labs was nearby. They were en route from the shop to the tower so I would think it would have to be in that general area.

[PhysicsLB]

but instead of speculating what it is and all that, lets stick to the raw facts, how does this thing react and behave, is it a virus, it is a contagious genetic virus, etc so on, when we started talking about saul and tonya being genetically immune we got off topic, lets sit down and work out what it could be or be a varient of.

who is immune and who isn't has no baring on the virus at all. it was even covered in this thread that Tonya said "if he was a slow turner, he would of been dead by now" which means its likely he just had blood posioning, WHICH is what saul got treated for, it makes sense, Tonya wouldn't know how to treat someone who was infected because the previous drugs weren't working. thats why the other slow turner got killed off by the colony.

now don't get me wrong i'm not saying that to be right or anything but i've always thought it was "too convienent" that someone would be immune, YES I KNOW HOW IMMUNUTY WORKS! (for the record i already knew so the fact i had it explaiend to me twice on this thread pissed me off i must admit, but i digress)

the point i am trying to make here is that to work out more accurately whats been doing what and who goes where would simply be a case of doing some kind of basic profile for the virus, for example, why is it only transferable through blood like an STD? does that have any bearing of its profile, it may be possible.



First, i'll apologize for explaining immunity. The way you had worded previous posts seemed to imply that you didnt fully understand it. that was a mistaken assumption on my part.

As for immunity not having a bearing: It actually does, insofar as the presence of an immunity would help us determine what type of vector it is. From there we can determine communicability, possible treatments, and even begin brainstorming on how illness prgresses and why it affects people differently (other variant zeds). My point with illustrating all these things regarding immunity is that depending on what scenario is true, we can identify the culprit. So saul and tanya's possible immunity is very germaine to this discussion. There is also a hole in your logic here: saul was unaffected by ground zero, but we can't determine if it was the drugs or a natural resistance. As we pointed out earlier, this was done on purpose to keep us from learning anything of value about the infection based on that event. If his drugs truly only affected his blood poisoning, then that event shows saul has a natural immunity.

As far as profiling the infection, i thought that was what we were doing. We've been analyzing the syptoms (zeds & the variants) and trying to determine if there is a second force at play here. If you look at the progression of the variant zeds, it seems to point towards intelligent design. Who that designer is will likely never be known until the very end.

I also have a follow-up for the blood transmission question: are there any instances where someone was turned without exposure to blood? I'm asking because i don't remember, and it's a good question. Especially since Tanya found no irregularities in the blood of the infected.

[PhysicsLB]

Another thing that bugs me is how do the smart ones fit in with the other special ones. Burt speculated that being a smart human made you a smart zombie. Skittles re-emphasized this when he warns against going near hospitals and 'book places' because of the brains. Therefore smartness seems to be a trait carried over from before infection.

The special ones appear to come from Ground Zero, as expressed by Kalani and C.J. But the runners, jumpers and behemoths have traits that EXCEED those of regular humans! The smart ones are just not as dumb as the other Zs. They don't have super human Khan Noonian Singh-like intelligence.

You make a really good point here. Also, like you point out: they seem to originate around areas with highly educated people and not ground zero. This would further support that there is something in ground zero causing these physical changes. Also, the fact that they aren't super smart would imply that there is someone/thing else controlling these changes and not TOWTM like some have speculated.

[Malador]

CJ said that she had to shoot someone who had been at ground zero, because exposure to the area had caused them to turn.

[PhysicsLB]

Ok. So knowing this, could it be airborne? At least to some small degree?

[YetAnotherBloodyCheek]

The question is - are there still jigsaw puzzle pieces left at Ground Zero? It will be quite interesting to see if all the information can be compiled into something useful at all.

[Malador]

So if the pathogen originally came from the fissures in the ground, wouldn't that lead more towards a bacteria of some sort? I thought that viruses were usually spread from a living organism to another, where exposure to an environmental disease were more commonly bacterial or fungal in nature.

[PhysicsLB]

The pathogen being released through fissures doesn't really jive with the order of events though, despite the incident of someone turning just from being there...
The infection started all over the globe nearly simultaneously. That seems unlikely for mother nature to pull off, at least without some help. Also, these fissures also seem to spur "evolution" of the zeds. These new species make zeds much more effective, especially when you factor in their appearance coincides with a certain level of societal degredation.

Regular/Smart ones - mass confusion and panic, high number of uninfected concentrated in small areas. No one knows what is going on, easily taken by surprise. Smart ones organize/lead to make the process more efficient.

Runners/Jumpers - uninfected have thinnned out considerably. Starting to arm themselves, building defensive positions, using cars/transport much more effectively. Zeds need to be faster/more agile to catch more dangerous prey.

Behemoths show up/jumpers die out - uninfected have become heavily entrenched, small arms incredibly common among survivors. Zeds need strength and durability to oeverpower their prey. Jumpers, while agile, lack speed and can be gunned down easier, causing their demise.

Little Ones - Survivors are heavily fortified, gaining access to heavier weapons, building a self-sustaining environment/less likely to leave fortifications. Need a smart/fast/strong/durable invading force to break defenses, allowing other zeds to infiltrate. Think Zed SWAT team.

The real outlier here is TOWTM and possibly randy. TOWTM is not only smart, it also has the abilities of a jumper/runner and seems quite durable (i think he's wearing a flak jacket correct?).

[Malador]

The spread of the infection worldwide was fast, but not quite simultaneous. The colonel tells Michael that a day and a half after the outbreak in Los Angeles, the eastern seaboard was hit.

[LiamKerrington]

TOWTM ... seems quite durable (i think he's wearing a flak jacket correct?).

That was never mentioned or described. It could be that he wears a flak jacket; but it is as likely that he does not suffer from hits to his chest - just the same as with regulars (harmed, no effect) or with Little Ones (hits don't go deep enough to do real damage).


The spread of the infection worldwide was fast, but not quite simultaneous. The colonel tells Michael that a day and a half after the outbreak in Los Angeles, the eastern seaboard was hit.

Right. This is in line with what Lizzy found out in episode #2-3 about the TiVo-broadcasting ... The excrements hitting the ventilators had a starting point or starting area; I remember the mentioning of the "Ring of Fire" around the Pacific in one of the many WA-theories. But there is no solid evidence or fact on the show supporting this theory - at best some hidden clues pointing towards it.

Best wishes!
Liam

[Witch_Doctor]

TOWTM ... seems quite durable (i think he's wearing a flak jacket correct?).

That was never mentioned or described. It could be that he wears a flak jacket; but it is as likely that he does not suffer from hits to his chest - just the same as with regulars (harmed, no effect) or with Little Ones (hits don't go deep enough to do real damage).
Best wishes!
Liam

Actually Saul tells CJ that he believes that Pinstripes must have been wearing body armor. If Pinstripes is indeed Bill Roberts AND he was wearing a suit then he could have been in transport from the Court House to the Mental Hospital; therefore wearing body armor would reasonable for a high profile murderer.

[Monster mani]

When Burt shoots him. There is a distinct metal thud. I back flack jacket.

[Witch_Doctor]

The spread of the infection worldwide was fast, but not quite simultaneous. The colonel tells Michael that a day and a half after the outbreak in Los Angeles, the eastern seaboard was hit.

This has been a bit bothersome for a while. The TiVo news reporter says that there are reports of 'riots' outside of L.A., Sand Diego, Detroit, Chicago, Houston, New York and internationally. Presumably, the riots started somewhat simultaneously or within a short time period. If this is the case, then this could be what Kimmet means by 'it multiplying and spreading across the country in a day and a half'. Not linearly from West to East but radially from several locations.

But, the simplest way to interpret what Kimmet says is that it started from West Coast hot spots and spread eastward. This interpretation would require the LEAST amount of assumptions.

Who is right, Mr. TiVo reporter or Col. Kimmet? The interpretation requiring the most assumptions could make them both right, but how likely is that part of the story? Also, could Kimmet have only been talking about his knowledge of hot spots on the West Coast and Asia?

[Witch_Doctor]

I'm gonna say that if a Zombie came into this discussion board and bit everyone then there would be more than enough smart ones to give Ink and Randy a run for their money.

[Malador]

I'm listening to chapter 33 again, and during the autopsy of #2, Tanya mentions that there are no deep roots on it's teeth, and underdevelopment of it's breasts in comparison to the size of the body. I think this lends a little more weight to my theory about them being children that were turned.

[Witch_Doctor]

I'm listening to chapter 33 again, and during the autopsy of #2, Tanya mentions that there are no deep roots on it's teeth, and underdevelopment of it's breasts in comparison to the size of the body. I think this lends a little more weight to my theory about them being children that were turned.

Don't forget that they were once Little and moved funny when Skittles first saw them.

[Drogon Malice]

ok since i last posted, the topic has moved way back towards ground zero and radon labs which is exactly what i was hoping for, this infomation all listed here in the last page or so is extremely relivent, given this infomation i'm going to do some research and print off a copy of the WA map of LA and start mapping things out and dealing with infomation relivent to the source of the outbreak. i think i might be onto something in my mind but i'll need to go through it carefully first and compile the infomation accordingly, so keep talking amungst your selves, to save me listening to the whole series over and over and over i may jump on here and ask people if they remember something like this happening, i think the infomation in the first few chapters is key to unlocking this. given infomation in the series and conversations and stuff.

personally i don't think saul did get infected when he got shot i think it was blood posioning but thats all part of everything, i'm going to sit down and thrash this out over the weekend maybe, depends if i got time or not i should be able too though.

[Drogon Malice]

First, i'll apologize for explaining immunity. The way you had worded previous posts seemed to imply that you didnt fully understand it. that was a mistaken assumption on my part.

As for immunity not having a bearing: It actually does, insofar as the presence of an immunity would help us determine what type of vector it is. From there we can determine communicability, possible treatments, and even begin brainstorming on how illness prgresses and why it affects people differently (other variant zeds). My point with illustrating all these things regarding immunity is that depending on what scenario is true, we can identify the culprit. So saul and tanya's possible immunity is very germaine to this discussion. There is also a hole in your logic here: saul was unaffected by ground zero, but we can't determine if it was the drugs or a natural resistance. As we pointed out earlier, this was done on purpose to keep us from learning anything of value about the infection based on that event. If his drugs truly only affected his blood poisoning, then that event shows saul has a natural immunity.

As far as profiling the infection, i thought that was what we were doing. We've been analyzing the syptoms (zeds & the variants) and trying to determine if there is a second force at play here. If you look at the progression of the variant zeds, it seems to point towards intelligent design. Who that designer is will likely never be known until the very end.

I also have a follow-up for the blood transmission question: are there any instances where someone was turned without exposure to blood? I'm asking because i don't remember, and it's a good question. Especially since Tanya found no irregularities in the blood of the infected.

P1: no worries mate, i've said before i'm heavily dyslexic, so sometimes what i intend to get across, doesn't always happen, no hard feelings, lets move on, no bad blood, just chicken curry sauce :p

P2: we were you've actualy just given me something to think about in that relation,, i don't think i could of been too far off with a previous theory, needs some work though.

P3: yes you are right but we've veered off topic about saul and immunity and stuff, i wanted to veer back onto the "who saw what and when and how it all happened" thing

P4: i don't think so, Samantha was eaten, the infected are intelligent enough to hunt and track so they also have a sense of breeding as well, this is just my personal opinion its clear that those attacked are often killed it purely seems to be blood transmitted, i think there might of been a case when the team from the fort Irwin came back and that captain turned and then there's all the infected which happened at the check points leading into the base but we don't really have much of a first hand account for that, even then blood can come out of the mouth and even gums via gum disease, so even if it was transfered by a bite, we wouldn't be able to verify i think going off what i remember thus far if there was blood around the mouth to be transmitted and stuff. but something worth looking into.

[Witch_Doctor]

P4: i don't think so, Samantha was eaten, the infected are intelligent enough to hunt and track so they also have a sense of breeding as well, this is just my personal opinion its clear that those attacked are often killed it purely seems to be blood transmitted, i think there might of been a case when the team from the fort Irwin came back and that captain turned and then there's all the infected which happened at the check points leading into the base but we don't really have much of a first hand account for that, even then blood can come out of the mouth and even gums via gum disease, so even if it was transfered by a bite, we wouldn't be able to verify i think going off what i remember thus far if there was blood around the mouth to be transmitted and stuff. but something worth looking into.

Both Samantha and Martin (From the arena) Mentions how the zombies like to 'play' and have 'fun' with the humans before eating. Vague but disturbing descriptions.

[LiamKerrington]

Actually Saul tells CJ that he believes that Pinstripes must have been wearing body armor. If Pinstripes is indeed Bill Roberts AND he was wearing a suit then he could have been in transport from the Court House to the Mental Hospital; therefore wearing body armor would reasonable for a high profile murderer.

When Burt shoots him. There is a distinct metal thud. I back flack jacket.

I must have missed this. Sorry.
Ok, so I rephrase: There is verified information that Ink wears a flak jacket; but according to description or noises it may be the case.




This has been a bit bothersome for a while. The TiVo news reporter says that there are reports of 'riots' outside of L.A., Sand Diego, Detroit, Chicago, Houston, New York and internationally. Presumably, the riots started somewhat simultaneously or within a short time period. If this is the case, then this could be what Kimmet means by 'it multiplying and spreading across the country in a day and a half'. Not linearly from West to East but radially from several locations.

But, the simplest way to interpret what Kimmet says is that it started from West Coast hot spots and spread eastward. This interpretation would require the LEAST amount of assumptions.

Who is right, Mr. TiVo reporter or Col. Kimmet? The interpretation requiring the most assumptions could make them both right, but how likely is that part of the story? Also, could Kimmet have only been talking about his knowledge of hot spots on the West Coast and Asia?

The simplest way to answer is to "rewind history" from Lizzy's finding:
- When she shows the news to the other Tower people on 12th May, she says she observed things the day before - so she recognized stuff on 11th May. Also the things recorded were programmed before that.
- Based on what the news-man says there are more riots in different cities.
Too bad we have no mentioning from what date the recordings were. In the one worse case they are from 9th May, when things started, which would also mean that there is a contradiction to what Kimmet says. In the other worse case broadcasting took place into 11th May, but the Tower-people did not recognize it. Considering the things Kimmet said I think it is quite "safe" to assume that the recordings were either from the later hours of 9th May or some time during 10th May; this would perfectly match with what Kimmet said - no contradiction at all.

Best wishes!
Liam

[LiamKerrington]

Both Samantha and Martin (From the arena) Mentions how the zombies like to 'play' and have 'fun' with the humans before eating. Vague but disturbing descriptions.

Yep. Disturbing, very disturbing. And vague as well. We have no description about what has happened to Samantha. Datu has not mentioned it (yet). It may be possible that she might be used for some breeding-craziness; but I hold it as more likely that she shares the same fate with her predecessors - Martin and other folk ...

[PhysicsLB]

Here's something that just popped in my head regarding the Little Ones:

What happens if a pregnant woman is turned? Could it be possible that the little ones are a side effect of being exposed to the infection in-utero? Perhaps this is why they have the full-scale assault on the colony? They want lizzie so they can turn her and generate the next step in their evolution through her baby?

[Witch_Doctor]

Here's something that just popped in my head regarding the Little Ones:

What happens if a pregnant woman is turned? Could it be possible that the little ones are a side effect of being exposed to the infection in-utero? Perhaps this is why they have the full-scale assault on the colony? They want lizzie so they can turn her and generate the next step in their evolution through her baby?


You're on a roll PyshicsLB. 2616
This seems like it would make more sense than reproducing Zs from conception to birth with a week-long gestation period.

Very Very fascinating.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFods1KSWsQ

[YetAnotherBloodyCheek]

Here's something that just popped in my head regarding the Little Ones:

What happens if a pregnant woman is turned? Could it be possible that the little ones are a side effect of being exposed to the infection in-utero? Perhaps this is why they have the full-scale assault on the colony? They want lizzie so they can turn her and generate the next step in their evolution through her baby?

I just do not want to know what will happen to Kim Kardashian or her baby at z-day...

http://www.mamapop.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/Kim_Kardashian_Pregnancy_Weight.jpg

Oh you poor starving zombies... I pity you. :)

[PhysicsLB]

You're on a roll PyshicsLB. 2616


DAT ROTATION.
(it doesn't have friction though :/)

Edit: on closer inspection though, It looks like Fpx Is friction.



I should really be working right now...

[scbubba]

Going back through the episodes before Season 4 starts and something struck me....

How much time elapsed between Z-Day and the ambush of Saul, Lizzie, and Burt in the rain? I'm wondering because that was the first encounter with Runners. My gut tells me it was not even a week.

That makes me think that someone was already into "genetic engineering" before everything went down if we stick to the Intelligent Zed Design idea.

Otherwise, it points out a VERY rapid evolution of the contagion. Not sure I'm buying that since there are still so many regular Zeds along side the Little Ones (and Behemoth) in Chapter 36.

Just another observation that neither confirms anything or really rules anything out.... (still fun though)

[Juann72]

I don't know if anybody mentioned this, but what if Saul and his mom aren't immune but in fact carriers a-la 28 weeks later? I know not very original but if Zedism is a disease, it stands to reason there would be Typhoid Mary types.

[Malador]

That would lead to an interesting child birth next season.

[Witch_Doctor]

Going back through the episodes before Season 4 starts and something struck me....

How much time elapsed between Z-Day and the ambush of Saul, Lizzie, and Burt in the rain? I'm wondering because that was the first encounter with Runners. My gut tells me it was not even a week.

That makes me think that someone was already into "genetic engineering" before everything went down if we stick to the Intelligent Zed Design idea.

Otherwise, it points out a VERY rapid evolution of the contagion. Not sure I'm buying that since there are still so many regular Zeds along side the Little Ones (and Behemoth) in Chapter 36.

Just another observation that neither confirms anything or really rules anything out.... (still fun though)


I'm guessing probably a month.We know that Pinstripes attacked Paul the day befor July 4th because of Pegs. Counting that days backwards we ca guess that they left to follow the tagged bodies perhaps 3 days prior.
Day 1) Michael trapped at the waterworks in the morning and Datu captured that evening.
Day 2) Riley and Angel awaken from the the night in the freezer.
Day 2 or 3) After Riley and Angel trapped in the pile of bodies they are all rescued and return to the tower.

This puts us at June 30th or July 1st.
Now we can go back about another five days based on another post I made.



Now how long could have Randy and co. been at the water works? I'm guessing a time line could be as follows:


The rain storm prior to Saul's et al trip to the fuel depot was the same one in which CJ's missing convoy was hit. (My guess based on Samantha's assertion that the convoy was attacked in the rain AND that there was a rainstorm prior to Saul, Lizzy and Burt (S/L/B) going to find diesel fuel, and KC emphasized that it was raining.)
The same day, or the following day Sean sends Randy and the techies to the water pumping station.
3 days later, CJ's tower is attacked.
So Randy may have been at the pumping station from the time Saul, Lizzy and Burt looks for fuel to the time AFTER they return, conduct the experiment and set off to track the tagged zombies.
Day 1 - End of rain storm. S/L/B go to find fuel, Kalani arrives at Dunbar, Techies go to water works.
Day 2 - Morning following Z attack on Saul in the hybrid.
Day 3 - Morning following Saul's escape from the Mallers. Angel discovers that the bodies are gone.
Day 4 - Lizzy implements the sweat experiment. Zombies tagged later that day. Latch and Scratch visit the Tower that night.
Day 5 - Water pressure finally fails. Michael, Angel, Riley and Datu leave for the water works and to follow the trackers.



Was he really there for almost a week? Did he know his Tower was attacked? Was he working on the plumbing for that whole time? Did he have plumber's crack (http://1.media.collegehumor.cvcdn.com/51/87/89b6dd5881b265a4d6f2d7d62e1cf915-t-shirt-turns-plumbers-crack-into-cleavage.jpg)?

This places us at around June 25th or 26th. The outbreak started on May 8th.


Man, I feel like a 10th Century monk trying to date Jesus' birth.

[LiamKerrington]

Man, I feel like a 10th Century monk trying to date Jesus' birth.

... with a slightly better chance of success ... ;)

[scbubba]

I'm guessing probably a month.We know that Pinstripes attacked Paul the day befor July 4th because of Pegs. Counting that days backwards we ca guess that they left to follow the tagged bodies perhaps 3 days prior.
Day 1) Michael trapped at the waterworks in the morning and Datu captured that evening.
Day 2) Riley and Angel awaken from the the night in the freezer.
Day 2 or 3) After Riley and Angel trapped in the pile of bodies they are all rescued and return to the tower.

This puts us at June 30th or July 1st.
Now we can go back about another five days based on another post I made.


This places us at around June 25th or 26th. The outbreak started on May 8th.


Man, I feel like a 10th Century monk trying to date Jesus' birth.

Great job, WD!!!

I just had a "derp!" moment - went and checked the timeline on the wiki (http://www.zombiepodcast.com/forum/showwiki.php?title=Timeline) and it has June 25th as the date.

So, about 6 weeks from Z-day to the first contact with non-regular Zeds. Even if some were at the attack on Dunbar, the timeline is still pretty much about 6 weeks.

That still brings me back to someone being prepared to work with genetics/virology before the whole thing went down or a very rapid evolution/mutation of the contagion.

I'm sticking with the Intelligent Design of the non-regular Zeds. There is someone behind these special ones. Is it TOWTM or someone in cahoots with him? Is TOWTM actually Bill Roberts and is he working with a doctor from the hospital to create and control all of this?

Anyway, that's more origin theory and not really infection theory. The infection, or non-infection in Saul and Tanya's cases, is a mystery.

[PhysicsLB]

Going back to the "typhoid mary" thing:

Typhoid fever is bacterial in nature. So if our infection is bacterial, it would be possible to have an asymptomatic carrier. The "incubation period" of a virus can also be asymptomatic as well, so it doesn't really help us in identifying what type of vector is being used.

The liklihood of something like that seems pretty slim since carriers can usually still infect others and we haven't seen people randomly turning just by hanging out with someone. Also, infection seems to be predominately blood exposure so a carrier would still have to bleed all over someone.

So, possible, but unlikely. Fun idea though.

[Malador]

IF the infection came from the chasms in the ground, then it is likely bacterial, since a virus has to have a living host to carry it.

[PhysicsLB]

Things seem to be pointing that way. So maybe "Typhoid Mary" isn't as off base as I initially thought. Now my question becomes, why has Tanya found no evidence of bacterial infection?

[PhysicsLB]

Re-listening to chapters 16 & 17, and a few things jump out at me:

Under-water zeds. How do they fit into this thing? If the zeds are still living beings, how were they able to stay underwater for so long?

Behemoths: When Angel and Kalani arrive at the army base, they find the "dead" behemoth lying there. They also give us a few more bits of info: Thick leathery skin, weird veins, and ALOT of acne.

The weird veins and acne remind me of 'roided up bodybuilders...and this is LA...perhaps these guys were exposed to steroids, or were on them when they turned?

[Malador]

Massive changes in human physiology can cause acne, such as pubescent teenagers. I feel that the amount of mutation is based on the age of the host when they're turned. The younger they are, the more the infection causes them to mutate.

[Witch_Doctor]

Re-listening to chapters 16 & 17, and a few things jump out at me:

Under-water zeds. How do they fit into this thing? If the zeds are still living beings, how were they able to stay underwater for so long?

Behemoths: When Angel and Kalani arrive at the army base, they find the "dead" behemoth lying there. They also give us a few more bits of info: Thick leathery skin, weird veins, and ALOT of acne.

The weird veins and acne remind me of 'roided up bodybuilders...and this is LA...perhaps these guys were exposed to steroids, or were on them when they turned?

I keep thinking about the Big Muscled zombie Riley kept talking about when they were tagging them with the trackers. I just couldn't pick up anything on how they might be connected.

[Drogon Malice]

Sniff Sniff not been around for a while i'm gonna read up and catch up, sorry folks IRL stuff been holding me down