About body-fluids ...

[LiamKerrington]

Hi there,

do we have any confirmation, yet, that the zombie-factor or zombie-agent can be transferred via any kind of bodyfluid by the zeehs? Or would it be possible that the zeeh-agent is only transferred, if a victim gets bitten? As far as I remember from listening to the show several times, I think it is still not clarified how the zeeh-factor is spread or how infection occurs.

Theory one: Any body-fluid that holds the agent could lead to an infection;
theory two: the infectious agent is only available in the saliva of a zombie;
theory three: the zeeh-agent can even be transferred via dander from the skin of zombies (think of scratches from the Little Ones, which could infect a person, although neither blood, lymph, or saliva are involved).

All the best!
Liam

[scbubba]

Hi there,

do we have any confirmation, yet, that the zombie-factor or zombie-agent can be transferred via any kind of bodyfluid by the zeehs? Or would it be possible that the zeeh-agent is only transferred, if a victim gets bitten? As far as I remember from listening to the show several times, I think it is still not clarified how the zeeh-factor is spread or how infection occurs.

Theory one: Any body-fluid that holds the agent could lead to an infection;
theory two: the infectious agent is only available in the saliva of a zombie;
theory three: the zeeh-agent can even be transferred via dander from the skin of zombies (think of scratches from the Little Ones, which could infect a person, although neither blood, lymph, or saliva are involved).

All the best!
Liam

Just working from memory at the moment... When Michael, Angel, and Saul rescue Riley and Pegs, the girls talk about the group of survivors that ran smack dab into a group of biters. I think she specifically mentions that several many were splattered with blood and turned. Now, that's a recollection from a high stress situation observed from a distance (I assume). So it might not be accurate.

When Tommy gets turned, it is apparently because he got coated in Zeeh-juices after the jumper in the Tower got perforated.

And then all the time spent avoiding contact with just about anything zeeh in the first season says that the characters have a strong belief that people turn from exposure to the any of the fluids.

Typing this up now makes me think about Angel and Riley hiding in the piles of bodies at the arena. Were all of those bodies human or were there any zeehs in there as well? If the zeeh parts were mixed in, then what does that say about our theories on body fluids and turning since Angel and Riley were covered head to toe (including getting stuff in their eyes)?

If the piles of bodies at the arena were just humans, then where did all the collected zeeh bodies get taken before the mallers blew up the arena?

Hmmm... You ask some good questions Liam. Good work!

[LiamKerrington]

Just working from memory at the moment... When Michael, Angel, and Saul rescue Riley and Pegs, the girls talk about the group of survivors that ran smack dab into a group of biters. I think she specifically mentions that several many were splattered with blood and turned. Now, that's a recollection from a high stress situation observed from a distance (I assume). So it might not be accurate.

When Tommy gets turned, it is apparently because he got coated in Zeeh-juices after the jumper in the Tower got perforated.

And then all the time spent avoiding contact with just about anything zeeh in the first season says that the characters have a strong belief that people turn from exposure to the any of the fluids.

Typing this up now makes me think about Angel and Riley hiding in the piles of bodies at the arena. Were all of those bodies human or were there any zeehs in there as well? If the zeeh parts were mixed in, then what does that say about our theories on body fluids and turning since Angel and Riley were covered head to toe (including getting stuff in their eyes)?

If the piles of bodies at the arena were just humans, then where did all the collected zeeh bodies get taken before the mallers blew up the arena?

Hmmm... You ask some good questions Liam. Good work!

Interesting. The thing with Tommy I really had not considered while raising my question.

I think it is quite safe to assume that Angel and Riley bathed in non-zeeh-thus-human-bodies. Although we have several occassions in which hundreds of zombies, even "an army" of them, showed up. But considering the millions and millions of people living and working in LA the number of zeehs is rather small. Therefore most dead bodies would be just human bodies.
But now the BIG BUT:

Since many humans died because they got attacked by zombies, it is pretty safe to assume that many humans got infected. But since the body-functions stopped working quickly enough, these victims did not turn into zeehs, right? And yet the zeeh-agent would have been in their bodies nevertheless.

Next question: Does the zeeh-agent die, if the container-body dies as well? Or does it remain active over a longer period / for endless time?

Amazing questions ...

All the best!
Liam

[scbubba]

Interesting. The thing with Tommy I really had not considered while raising my question.

I think it is quite safe to assume that Angel and Riley bathed in non-zeeh-thus-human-bodies. Although we have several occassions in which hundreds of zombies, even "an army" of them, showed up. But considering the millions and millions of people living and working in LA the number of zeehs is rather small. Therefore most dead bodies would be just human bodies.
But now the BIG BUT:

Since many humans died because they got attacked by zombies, it is pretty safe to assume that many humans got infected. But since the body-functions stopped working quickly enough, these victims did not turn into zeehs, right? And yet the zeeh-agent would have been in their bodies nevertheless.

Next question: Does the zeeh-agent die, if the container-body dies as well? Or does it remain active over a longer period / for endless time?

Amazing questions ...

All the best!
Liam

Hadn't thought about how long the zeeh agent might live. The people that were killed while turning: how contagious would they be in death? More or less contagious than a fully-turned zeeh? More or less than a human killed by a zombie (and probably carrying some amount of the agent on or in their corpse now)?

If the agent is viral (or similar), how hardy is it? Can it live on non-living surfaces (think doorknobs, handrails, desktops, and the like) and if so, for how long?

Is there an aerosol vector to it at all?

Hmmmm..... Who else wants to jump in on this and help me and Liam ponder this?

[LiamKerrington]

Hadn't thought about how long the zeeh agent might live. The people that were killed while turning: how contagious would they be in death? More or less contagious than a fully-turned zeeh? More or less than a human killed by a zombie (and probably carrying some amount of the agent on or in their corpse now)?

If the agent is viral (or similar), how hardy is it? Can it live on non-living surfaces (think doorknobs, handrails, desktops, and the like) and if so, for how long?

Is there an aerosol vector to it at all?

Hmmmm..... Who else wants to jump in on this and help me and Liam ponder this?

Imagine the answer to those questions would be: Regardless of the condition of the body, the zeeh-agent remains 'lethal', THEN Riley and Angel were heavily exposed while bathing in the dead bodies. And if they had even minor bruises on their skins, it would have been likely that they got infected as well.

But they did not turn. So we would have another two, now only one living, individual being immune to the zeeh-factor.

That would be awesome - AND crazy ... !

Just as an aside, because I did not clarify this in my last posting: Since Tommy was wounded and covered in zombie-goo, my answer was properly answered: the zeeh-agent not only exists in the saliva, but also/ especially in their blood (and maybe lymph); and yet another question remains, if dander would be enough as well (probably not ...).

(edit: Why do I have the feeling that this might turn out to become a crackpot-theory?)

All the best!
Liam

[yarri]

You all do this when I'm trapped in mobile hell. Lol

[Sammy D]

First of all, I had to chuckle that I was joining a discussion titled "about body-fluids". I am quite relieved this is the direction things went!

I think the key of the infection level of the fluids in question lies in its entry point! It is now well established that blood is the key to passing the infection. If it is on a person's skin they are not necessarily at risk for infection.

Riley and Angel did not have any open wounds and avoided other entry points (eyes, mouth and such until they could cleaned off)

It would almost assuredly be an aerosol when it was originally introduced to the populace. the air issues of Saul and Victor would indicate that. Will post more later I got a road trip today and will listen to a few chapters!

[LiamKerrington]

First of all, I had to chuckle that I was joining a discussion titled "about body-fluids". I am quite relieved this is the direction things went!

I had to chuckle while imagining what your imagination let you chuckle ...

But, yes, I know ... The title to this thread has a certain "slippery tendency", which necessarily requires (body-)fluids as well ... Which would be just another - rather disgusting or perverse - question on Zombies' body-fluids holding zeeh-agents. But before things get all porn, let's stick with what seems to be more obvious or at least more likely for the WA-verse ... ;)


I think the key of the infection level of the fluids in question lies in its entry point! It is now well established that blood is the key to passing the infection. If it is on a person's skin they are not necessarily at risk for infection.

That's an intersting idea. And it convinces me. I guess it really makes a difference, if a major artery or just a minor vein is hit and how quickly the zeeh-agnt reaches important parts of the body - like for instance the nervous system and especially the brain. And a new question: What parts of the (inner-)body does the zeeh-agent affect to make someone turn into a zeeh?


Riley and Angel did not have any open wounds and avoided other entry points (eyes, mouth and such until they could cleaned off)

Since there was no mentioning about any woundings, I have no reason to argue with. And yet I am wondering - A LOT. Considering the circumstances it might be not unlikely that people fighting for survival and always put into stress and combat-situations might have small bruises here and there - especially on the hands, maybe the cheeks ... Anyway: If it was the case that Riley and Angel were somehow wounded, it would have been mentioned. It was not, thus this is a dead-end for any theory, I think.

But what about Saul, when he defended himself while he was in the hybrid? He shot at the zeehs that smashed the car to pieces? Saul fell into the whisky-bottles and got badly wounded on his back. Now, with a) zeehs being shot while they were kind of over him and b) tearing metal and plastics apart and therefore probably wounding themselves ... How likely Saul might have gathered some zeeh-goo? And how likely would that have reached his woundings as well?
Alright: Same argument as for Angel and Riley: We know for sure he was hurt, because it was mentioned on the show; but at the same time neither Burt nor Lizzy recognized any zeeh-goo on Saul. Thus: another dead-end ... *sigh*

All the best!
Liam

[scbubba]

I had to chuckle while imagining what your imagination let you chuckle ...

But, yes, I know ... The title to this thread has a certain "slippery tendency", which necessarily requires (body-)fluids as well ... Which would be just another - rather disgusting or perverse - question on Zombies' body-fluids holding zeeh-agents. But before things get all porn, let's stick with what seems to be more obvious or at least more likely for the WA-verse ... ;)



That's an intersting idea. And it convinces me. I guess it really makes a difference, if a major artery or just a minor vein is hit and how quickly the zeeh-agnt reaches important parts of the body - like for instance the nervous system and especially the brain. And a new question: What parts of the (inner-)body does the zeeh-agent affect to make someone turn into a zeeh?



Since there was no mentioning about any woundings, I have no reason to argue with. And yet I am wondering - A LOT. Considering the circumstances it might be not unlikely that people fighting for survival and always put into stress and combat-situations might have small bruises here and there - especially on the hands, maybe the cheeks ... Anyway: If it was the case that Riley and Angel were somehow wounded, it would have been mentioned. It was not, thus this is a dead-end for any theory, I think.

But what about Saul, when he defended himself while he was in the hybrid? He shot at the zeehs that smashed the car to pieces? Saul fell into the whisky-bottles and got badly wounded on his back. Now, with a) zeehs being shot while they were kind of over him and b) tearing metal and plastics apart and therefore probably wounding themselves ... How likely Saul might have gathered some zeeh-goo? And how likely would that have reached his woundings as well?
Alright: Same argument as for Angel and Riley: We know for sure he was hurt, because it was mentioned on the show; but at the same time neither Burt nor Lizzy recognized any zeeh-goo on Saul. Thus: another dead-end ... *sigh*

All the best!
Liam

Damn fine question! I hadn't thought about the hybrid incident in all this. I've got to go back and listen to that to see what I can pick up about his state (other than bleeding and smelling like whiskey) when they recover him.

IF there is a possibility that he had "exposure" at that point in the show, we have more to dig into on the Saul/Tanya immunity theories, I think. Mainly because that incident of exposure for Saul pre-dates significantly any antibiotic (or other) treatments. Thus giving more credence to the genetic immunity line of thinking.

Anyway, back to the main topic here. I think that we are supposed to draw the conclusion that there has to be some sort of entry point for the zeeh agent into the human body. Casual skin contact with zeeh fluids just doesn't do it. The human bloodstream is a very obvious and effective entry point. We saw that it doesn't take a large wound to allow turning (e.g. Tommy had a "scratch" and was then covered in jumper guts). Mucus membranes (eyes, nose, mouth) MAY also work as effective entry points but I don't think we have solid proof on that.

Prior to the Little Ones, it seems that the agent was only effectively transferred via bites (saliva) and blood (zeeh guts). With the Little Ones, I'm not sure we have an exact description of how they turned humans but I get the sense that it may be more than just biting - like Liam says with dander, nail scratches, or similar.

One thing we do know is that the Little Ones are VERY effective at transmitting the zeeh agent. And, IMHO, are doing it deliberately.

[Osiris]

In for later!

[scbubba]

Damn fine question! I hadn't thought about the hybrid incident in all this. I've got to go back and listen to that to see what I can pick up about his state (other than bleeding and smelling like whiskey) when they recover him.


Just listened to Part 3 of "Lady and the Tink" and there is no mention of Saul having any Zeeh fluids/matter on him at all. Just the whiskey and the cuts from the glass. So disregard the stuff about Saul's immunity that I wrote above....

[LiamKerrington]

Just listened to Part 3 of "Lady and the Tink" and there is no mention of Saul having any Zeeh fluids/matter on him at all. Just the whiskey and the cuts from the glass. So disregard the stuff about Saul's immunity that I wrote above....

This is actually exactly the trouble I have with the picutre of this seen ever since I listened to it the first time. There are two reason for this:
a) Saul shoots at the zombies, while they tear apart the car. Considering the damage he probably did to the zombie-bodies, isn't it strange that there was no bleeding on him from the gunshot-wounds of the zeehs? Although the impact of the bullets don't necessarily start fountains of blood, the metabolism of the zeehs' would have them bleed from their wounds;
b) them zeehs barehandedly demolished the car; although even regulars might have a certain 'solid' skin to physical impact (which is not really true, since we learned many, many times, how easily regulars get killed or wounded), demolished metal, broken windows, damaged plastics quite likely wounded them zeehs on their hands, arms and maybe even other body-parts as well; and yet there was no zeeh-blood on Saul, who actually was cornered into the car and below a horde of zombies.

Granted: The show does not mention anything about him and zombie-fluids on him; but to a certain degree this is kind of a stretch given the circumstances. Nevertheless: The situation has the benefit of the doubt ...

All the best!
Liam