Do zombies communicate? And if so, HOW???

[LiamKerrington]

Hi.

YetAnotherBloodyCheek raised a very interesting question during the episode #34-1 discussion:
http://www.zombiepodcast.com/forum/showthread.php?3681-Chapter-34-1-It-Only-Takes-One&p=48551&viewfull=1#post48551

In short: Do zombies/ Little Ones communicate, and if so, how?

This is, what I think:

We know about two distinct ways of communications only so far:
a) Attacks of hordes of Zombies, because some zombie-d-bag howls like crazy, AND
b) most likely Ink/ Pinstripes/ Bill Roberts/ 'Smart Ones' (all with a questions mark!) giving very simple commands ("leave her alone" in CJ's Tower).
Thus the show does not provide us with evidence or witness-reports if and how the zombies communicate with each other in general, but only in distinct situations. And yes, even CJ does not know, what type of zombie actually ordered the Regulars to leave her alone, because the one speaking was out of her sight; but we assume it was Ink, since we only ever encountered him being capable of uttering some words.

And we know something else as well: zombies acting like a hungry and noise-pained bunch killing everything in reach of their scent, hearing or whatever; and there are many different occasions in which zombies either follow certain strategies (ambush site, setting up traps and imprisoning victims for whatever reason, organized attacks (both Towers, the Colony), or organized mass-movements (areny -> hospital)) or let Ink/ Bill Roberts/ Pinstripes do things to individual zombies (Devil's workshop - modifing finger nails and numbering the first generation Little Ones). This concludes the question: Do they actually communicate? And if so, how do they do this?

Well, according to the report by CJ part of the communication is the utterance of words. Thus zombies know or 'easily' learn the understanding of at least simple commands. And since zombies seem to be capable of moving according to kind of an 'organized plan', I really see the need of some means of communication - even if it is only some very basic thing like what you have in herds of animals where alphas are accepted based on what they 'say' through their deeds, means of repressing others, leading somewhere ...
And ever since I wondered: What if the zombies "howl" and "gurgle" in the noticeable wave-spectrum recognizable by human ears as an side-effect, because they may also have subsonic or different wavelength-communication as well? Or what, if the sounds created by the Zombies, which are actually very different and distinguishable, especially regarding the Little Ones, are a kind of speach as well? This is just simple mad fantasy; and both theories would only allow some very basic means of communcation considering the short duration of the zeeh-pocalyspe. And although both theories are totally crazy - even too me - I wouldn't want to neglect them as too crazy ...

All theory. Future may tell us ...

Yet I consider it as a safe assumption that there is some basic level of communication which allows the Little Ones/ zombies in general to communicate. Even if there is no special level of communication regarding the wave-lengths or frequencies, I would even consider some kind of nonverbal communication, especially gestures and hormones (we have the quite solid estimate supported by Tanya that zombies have some bio-chemical activities which allows the 'use' of hormones/ pheromones ...). And this would enable them to somehow-ish organize or give structure to their in-Boulder-attacks.

Thoughts? Oppinions? Ideas?

All the best!
Liam

[Witch_Doctor]

Other examples include Randy looking at Michael when Michael calls out to him (When the zombies try capturing Tanya), and after Lizzy drops the recorder after attacking the arena zombies can be heard running to the spot she was standing, then one says what sounds like, "Go!" Understanding spoken words.

Another time was when the Tower was on fire during the war and Angel says that TOWTM was keeping them away while the lobby was on fire then sent them to attack after the fire. He used growls.


I'm not clear on their scope of understanding language. TOWTM could understand the code called to him. He also understood Burt when he was playing dead and Burt says that they're out of bullets. When the Tower folk and Irwin troops use explosive decoys, they use a spoken call for help but this means nothing as the Zombies also respond to loud noises.

[LiamKerrington]

Hi there,

thank you, Witch-Doctor, for providing these excellent examples. They also point towards some weird ways of communication. For me another question would be: Don't they grab the scope of understanding language, or do the survivors or we as listeners not grab the scope of the zombie's understanding of their own language, if they have one? A very hard nut to crack ...

All the best!
Liam

[YetAnotherBloodyCheek]

@WD / Liam: Both of your comments showed me that I have to listen to the podcasts episodes again. If I do not, I will not become the encyclopedist that you are myself. ;-)

Back to business. I am not sure if the words spoken by the zombies are a real means of communication or just fragments of memory, which are either articulated to emphasize an order or - on the other side - are still connected to reaction existing in the brain. I mean, a "Go!" or "Leave her!" do not qualify to explain the orchestrated attack on Boulder by the zombies. That kind of applied strategic thinking would require to utter complex sentences (describing waypoints), conditional constructs ("Do not do that unless there are not too many guards") and time-dependent conditions ("Do not do that before the lights go out"). I can hardly see how this would be accomplished by merely grunts and growls.

Maybe I'm too picky, but I think that is some sort of communication that a humans can perceive. Otherwise, the zombies would be more driven by instincts, which are the result of a behavioral control reprogramming if you will. Much like a swarm of insects than a group of individuals.

Just my two cents.

[LiamKerrington]

It's cool. 2c - take it or leave, I'd say. :cool: And you have a good point there.

Probably the zombies won't be able to elaborate on things, and we never ever where able to recognize something pointing towards complex speech-patterns. But what we know are a few things that point towards 'something':

- "Leave her alone" (or whatever the phrase was), was clear and simple in enough that zombies stopped cornering and trying to attack CJ back in her tower; the creatures simply returned to whatever zombies do if they are not on the hunt;
- And do you have a vivid memory about what has happened in the arena? With setting up traps, capturing people, locking them away in some special place deep within the arena, keeping food-storages and (!) an extra pile of bones and body-parts that were of no use anymore, getting victims for the games/ weird purpose etc. If you grab this whole picture and consider the (although maybe flat) hierarchy within the ranks of the zombies, then my doubts about the zombies being able to communicate on a primitive level are small.
- Also think of this: Even though a single zombie gets a simple order (Yarrr-gurrgle-gurrgle-ATTACK-screetch-gurrgle-swushl-scrag), the zombie still has to take action; and the smarter it is, the more likely it is dealing with a situation not the binary way (attack or flee), but more along the line approach-observe-take-chances-be cautious-move on-in doubt retreat; you don't need elaborate orders that for. Weak spot here: How does zombie a recognize a for humans important building and explain it to zombies not understanding this ... Pretty likely: it won't; but it may order other zombies either to spare the building or to attack without giving explanations or elaborations on it ...
- About the orchestrated attack on Boulder: Is it an orchestrated attack? Or is it just the case that one dangerous zombie got into Boulder, started to wound and infect instead of killing people, and the newly infected might have started to act on their own? Maybe even the one having started hit might have taken command over a few newly infected to get some support in taking down specific buildings/ personnel in boulder, while the others are free to move ... Therefore no orchestrated attack, thus no need to rely on complex patterns of speech ...

As for being to picky: No, I guess you are right about pointing out some major things to take care of. That helps paying close attention to details and trying to draw "(more?) likely" conclusions from the bits and pieces Kc (Ink) throws us (Zombies) into the story of WA (the arena) ...

All the best!
Liam

[YetAnotherBloodyCheek]

It's cool. 2c - take it or leave, I'd say. :cool: And you have a good point there.
[...]

As for being to picky: No, I guess you are right about pointing out some major things to take care of. That helps paying close attention to details and trying to draw "(more?) likely" conclusions from the bits and pieces Kc (Ink) throws us (Zombies) into the story of WA (the arena) ...

All the best!
Liam

So have we already become members of the Fellowship of the Ink? :D

[Kermit_Killer]

So have we already become members of the Fellowship of the Ink?

Nicely put, good sir! lol

"My brother... my captain... my King!"

[YetAnotherBloodyCheek]

I currently listening again to episode 3, in which Burts tells Saul and Angel that he has been attacked by a smart one and his group. When Burt locked himself in the bathroom, concluded that the smart one ordered the other zombies to wait for Burt to leave the room. I think it is crucial to find out whether the small one just utter a rather simple command like "guard the door" or a complex one like "guard the door until he comes out." The second alternative would mean that the zombies still have higher brain functions (planning, imaging, comprehend and divide between past/present/future), something the brain stem alone is not able to do as I recall.

If the higher brain functions are still there, the question is: why should the zombies loose their ability to speak?

[Luna Guardian]

We know that the zeds have heightened senses of smell, I've always thought that the rank-and-file zombies communicate like animals, by gestures, body language, primitive vocal language and especially pheromones. The more advanced individuals (Smart Ones, Ink etc.) have been shown to exert control over the simpler ones, but I doubt its something as science-fictiony as telepathy. Stronger pheromones, more advanced zombie-language communication and an alpha-like behavior, like in animal pack leaders

[YetAnotherBloodyCheek]

All we can say for sure is that the zombie communication differs significantly from human communication. The question remains how the zombies adapt to this new form of communication. If you will, is there - I do not know how to put it right - a Rosetta Stone (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosetta_Stone) or something that enables the zombie to talk and unterstand the Z-language.

[LiamKerrington]

What, if the zeeh-factory just empowers instincts, while the knowledge of language remains and functions as kind of a "corrective", if an Alpha-zeeh commands the lower-grade zeehs? Actually we know that them zeehs understand (core-)language to some degree. But it is obvious that they don't listen to anyone and that they are not pretty fond of using language as means of organization, 'cause the instinctive behaviour serves their purposes well enough ...

[Deacon_Tyler]

All we can say for sure is that the zombie communication differs significantly from human communication. The question remains how the zombies adapt to this new form of communication. If you will, is there - I do not know how to put it right - a Rosetta Stone (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosetta_Stone) or something that enables the zombie to talk and unterstand the Z-language.

Gruh RUH = I am disappointed with my current station in life
Rurrr = Lovely weather we are having, old chap
Ruhruhgrr = It really is a beautiful life, is it not? The sun is shining, the birds are singing and the economy is recovering at such a pace that I am cautiously optimistic in stating that we will soon enter another golden age of being. Ah, the joy of language and the ecstacy of ideas!
Grrarr = I really should have been more cautious when picking up that Thai hooker.

[LiamKerrington]

About Rosetta Stone:
In doubt the Babel Fish will do ...

[YetAnotherBloodyCheek]

About Rosetta Stone:
In doubt the Babel Fish will do ...

Liam, the last chance to aquire a bable fish distroyed by the Vogons when Arthur Dent and the other arrived at "Stavro Mueller's Beta" club. Evvverryyyyone knows that. :)

[YetAnotherBloodyCheek]

Gruh RUH = I am disappointed with my current station in life
Rurrr = Lovely weather we are having, old chap
Ruhruhgrr = It really is a beautiful life, is it not? The sun is shining, the birds are singing and the economy is recovering at such a pace that I am cautiously optimistic in stating that we will soon enter another golden age of being. Ah, the joy of language and the ecstacy of ideas!
Grrarr = I really should have been more cautious when picking up that Thai hooker.

Hm, I wonder if this would mean that a deaf-mute zombie is only a second-class zombie.
By the way, cool stuff!

[LiamKerrington]

Liam, the last chance to aquire a bable fish distroyed by the Vogons when Arthur Dent and the other arrived at "Stavro Mueller's Beta" club. Evvverryyyyone knows that. :)

Everyone? So why, my dear Sir, I would not belong to everyone then?
Also answer this particular small question: if the last of its kind was killed or destroyed, wouldn't the Hitchhiker's Guide refer to it in past tense rather instead of the present tense?
Also: The Hitchhiker'S Guide is all about things happening after the world we live hin was destroyed, which actually has not occured yet, has it? Thus the events in "Stavro Mueller's Beta"-club are something to happen sometime imporbable time in the future, which also means: there still exist the Babel Fishes ...

:rolleyes:

[Deacon_Tyler]

Everyone? So why, my dear Sir, I would not belong to everyone then?
Also answer this particular small question: if the last of its kind was killed or destroyed, wouldn't the Hitchhiker's Guide refer to it in past tense rather instead of the present tense?
Also: The Hitchhiker'S Guide is all about things happening after the world we live hin was destroyed, which actually has not occured yet, has it? Thus the events in "Stavro Mueller's Beta"-club are something to happen sometime imporbable time in the future, which also means: there still exist the Babel Fishes ...

:rolleyes:

Well in an infinite universe, everything does and most likely has already happened so often that the unusual, queer or impossible probably occurs so often that they are downright commonplace.

Edit: An example would be the phenomenon of birds suddenly appearing every time you are near. Many philosophers have asked "why" in regards to the aforementioned phenomena, in both song and verse.

[LiamKerrington]

Then this means that the Babel Fish remains in existance in an infinite universe although it is supposed to be extinct ... Right?

[Deacon_Tyler]

Then this means that the Babel Fish remains in existance in an infinite universe although it is supposed to be extinct ... Right?

Infinitely!

[LiamKerrington]

Ha!