Lizzy & Scratch

[martinatime]

Hi Everyone!
I'm not certain if this is the correct place and this is my first time starting a thread so please let me know if I'm doing something incorrectly. I just had a thought related to Scratch's intentions towards Lizzy and her baby boy Henry. Since it has come to light that Scratch had an abortion that left her "scarred" we assume that this means that she can no longer have children of her own. We also know that family means a lot to her. Since her brother is dead then she is probably the last living heir to her family and she has no one to pass the family ring to. So could it be possible that she is protecting Lizzy and her baby not just because of her experiences and loss but because she intends to take the baby as her own and off Lizzy to continue her family line? This may be a stretch but she was playing with her family ring while she was in with Lizzy during the checkup.

[nikvoodoo]

Scratch's reaction to lizzy asking if she was going to take the baby was pretty clear. Scratch sounded shocked like the thought never crossed her mind.

[LiamKerrington]

Hi there.

Well, I think Scratch does not have any sinister plan on her mind - right now.

To me it looks like the becoming mother Lizzy and the growing baby push Scratch back into her own dark past full of suffering and pain; and right now I do believe that Scratch attenuates her self-pitty and pain with the idea of protecting the baby and Lizzy. This is not about protecting a mother and a child, because Scratch could not care less; Scratch is way too vile and evil in order to think and act along these lines.

She has proven many times that she really does not care a bit about other people - except maybe for "Latch", whom she considered with some really impolite conversations btw. And it really does not matter, if it is something evolving around Mallers or other people: she did not hesitate once to deceive people into doing things, openly lying at people or even harming up to killing people just in order to reach her own personal long- or short-term goals. She is an opportunist - only in her own favor. And that is why I expect no less then Scratch instantly creating a plan with the baby and/ or Lizzy when the time is right and the situation may be futile for her own personal agenda.

With Saul probably entering The Colony soon, I think it is not unlikely that there will be a confrontation and that Scratch would consider the baby or Lizzy as a "device" to unleash her vile will upon Saul or others. We will see. There is plenty of room for speculation at least.

All the best!
Liam

[Robzombie]

Prior abortion does not make a women infertile (yes of course it can happen, but generally not), and while "family" seems to be very important to her, I don't think it means that she's nesesarily the mothering type, or at least has ever been prepared to be a mother. By "scarred" i'm certain she is refering to the emotional scar, and I agree that she has (up till now) no intention of taking or harming the baby what so ever. In fact I think she will go a long way in protecting it. I also don't think she cares one wit about continuing any family line...she did also say it was a curse. She's a hyper emotional person which ends with certain results, usually violent to express her pain, loss and hurt. Thats why Lizzie is confused as to what her intentions are with the baby. This also confuses a lot of the listeners because we're expecting a negative outcome. I just think its us seeing Scratches pain and hurt in a different way which I think is genuine, in fact I think this is one huge, if not primary source of that anger and pain.

[Osiris]

The old coathanger trick.

[Osiris]

Aww... shit. That sounds more brutal than I'd intended.

[nikvoodoo]

The old coathanger trick.

Ouch dude.....just ouch. I had the same thought at one point then I realized this show doesn't take place in the 50s and 60s and she probably just had to go to some quack who had the gear, but not the knowledge to use it properly.

[Osiris]

Ouch dude.....just ouch. I had the same thought at one point then I realized this show doesn't take place in the 50s and 60s and she probably just had to go to some quack who had the gear, but not the knowledge to use it properly.

Yeah... I'll go to that place. I knew a girl in the early 90s who had a back alley abortion that went sideways. Sad shit.

[martinatime]

Scratch's reaction to lizzy asking if she was going to take the baby was pretty clear. Scratch sounded shocked like the thought never crossed her mind.

I want to agree with you but I just have a feeling that Scratch has the skill to cover her intentions (a.k.a. lying through her teeth) when she is not overcome with rage. I will keep this in the back of my mind as a potential path for the narrative until Lizzy and child are back with the tower folk.

[LiamKerrington]

I want to agree with you but I just have a feeling that Scratch has the skill to cover her intentions (a.k.a. lying through her teeth) when she is not overcome with rage. I will keep this in the back of my mind as a potential path for the narrative until Lizzy and child are back with the tower folk.

After having listend to WND#42 other things have crossed my mind:
situation a: Durai watches the video and invites Scratch to a cup of tea. At first he tolds her: Crazy bitch, then he tolds her: finally you've become a true family-member ... I know: pretty unlikely.
situation b: Durai watches the video and invites Scratch in order to rip off her head, keeping the head alive for the rest of earth's existence in order to reopen the scratch and pouring salt into it; Scratch appears and is confronted with the video... and as soon as Durai transforms into Kratos in order to destroy Scratch, something happens:
sub-situation aa: the colony gets attacked/ a revolt starts, and Durai only says: "We're not done yet; but at first make sure the attack/ revolt is silenced" ... OR
sub-situtiaton bb: while transforming into Kratos Scratch transforms into Bayonetta and eats Durai alive, OR
sub-situation cc: instead of ripping off Scratch's head he only slams his fist right into the middle of her face (breaks her nose, destroys her chin, removes plenty of teeth, but still she is alive) or he just gives a symbolical "smack" on her cheek and tells her: "Lucky bitch; the Zombie-apocalypse demands that I still need you; hope for your survival that the Zombie-apocalypse lasts forever, otherwise I will deal with you later; but for now keep a low profile - don't fail me again, or I don't care about nothing, crazy asshead ..."
situation c: because of "something" happens, Durai never learns about the video.

Many "ors" and "ifs"; and it is hard to predict anything, because we know little about Durai ...

Anyway. Just thoughts ...
All the best!
Liam

[Tales from Valhalla]

Hi Everyone!
I'm not certain if this is the correct place and this is my first time starting a thread so please let me know if I'm doing something incorrectly. I just had a thought related to Scratch's intentions towards Lizzy and her baby boy Henry. Since it has come to light that Scratch had an abortion that left her "scarred" we assume that this means that she can no longer have children of her own. We also know that family means a lot to her. Since her brother is dead then she is probably the last living heir to her family and she has no one to pass the family ring to. So could it be possible that she is protecting Lizzy and her baby not just because of her experiences and loss but because she intends to take the baby as her own and off Lizzy to continue her family line? This may be a stretch but she was playing with her family ring while she was in with Lizzy during the checkup.

I do love the fact that Scratch protects and is putting Lizzie above some duties (she had to get a direct order from Durai to not go right away with Lizzie and Bricks to the doc), she probably doesn't want women losing their babies like she did. Lizzie brings lots of painful memories and even makes Scratch rethink her duty to the family in order to avenge her brother (I'll guess Scratch already had doubts about the families and their black and white rules from the get go).

That being said, if Scratch is aware of the messed up rules and burdens a family put in their members, she wouldn't want Lizzie and the baby to get involved in it... And from what I head in chapter 32-1, Lizzie wouldn't want anything to do with that and Scratch even if she were to be offered a position there.

I'm kinda sad because I think Lizzie has the credentials to help Scratch a bit, with all her psychology powers and baby momma aura, but now with the Burt situation and Angel's death (which I don't think was a bad thing... since he was VERY messed up... but whatever, who will be rational about this, right? pff...) Lizzie wants to screw Scratch to death. Because that's what will happen if Durai says "ok that was against family rules, I don't care if he was dying".

However, IF Durai is OK with Angel's death, Scratch and Lizzie's (sorta kinda) relationship will be strained with that double backstabbing situation. Sadly, I don't see a way for them to mend things or for Scratch to end up alive :/

Now excuse me while I go over there to cry for my favorite psycho....

[LiamKerrington]

Yeah, Scratch has a potential for being an awesome psycho.

And it is very sad to assume that not even empathically skilled characters like Lizzy will be able to help her get better.

But I assume, no matter who or what will do in order to interfere with Scratch or to put Scratch into a disadvantages situation, Scratch will somehow-ish deal with it or get through with it. Scratch has so many "conflict-lines" with so many tower-folks that it is unlikely that Scratch will die any time soon - first of all there is the huge Pegs-revenge-story-arc because of the death of Latch, then there is the torturing of Burt, not to forget the prepared revenge-rampagne for Riley to got against Scratch for her having killed Angel, then the tense situation and kind of inner conflict for Scratch with regards to "the family", eventually a tnt-packed relationship between Scratch and Colony-folks we don't know yet ... So, what I am saying here, is: We will have plenty of opportunity to "care" for Scratch ... So no need for you to cry over your favorite psycho ... ;)

All the best!
Liam

[Tales from Valhalla]

Basically lots of people want to see Scratch dead in the story.

I can't visualize Burt EVER forgiving Scratch for what she did. Altho' Scratch was a catalysis to help Burt overcoming his issue (one that was mentioned before): he always hide behind his gun, he shoots first ask questions later. Now he doesn't have any of that and his choices are: to roll over and die or to lift up his chin and be reborn Burt 2.0 Wise Old Man Version. Lizzie is far from having stockholm syndrome to help Scratch after all this. Saul will want Scratch's head on a plate... all in all, the only person I can see empathizing and trying to help Scratch is, sadly, Pegs.

Wouldn't it be amazing if Scratch and Pegs talked things over? I just don't know if that would be before or after Scratch tries to bite Pegs' head off.

Damn you Kc for all the emotional roller-coasters

[LiamKerrington]

Hi there,

yeah, I think Scratch eventually dies ... but probably no sooner then in a very advanced stage of the story. If I were in the situation of KC I would think of something like this: two major plot-lines: a) Saul, Victor, CJ, The Mallers, The Colony, Burt, Lizzy, Baby being the one line, b) Military reconaissance and then attack on Inglewood/ ground zero being the other one. In order to keep the susepnse up, add some complications here and there, throw in some plot-twists (the complete Maller-Colony-thing literally asks for them) and for the sake of the story don't waste important characters. And Scratch is uber-important. Without her the whole Maller-Colony-thing would loose a lot of "spirit".

And no: It wouldn't be amazing, if Scratch and Pegs talked things over; this would be in line of the character of Pegs, but it would be absolutely against the nature of Scratch; and that would be too bad, because actually - although I really hate the "character" of Scratch besides accepting here background as the source of all of it - I so much like this personificated evil.
But I agree with you: there are many emotional roller-coasters available in WA ...

All the best!
Liam

[Tales from Valhalla]

Ok... here's something to think over for a bit (and I'm trying not to be biased): is it really necessary for Scratch to die? Wouldn't it be strangely way too perfect if all the bad guys are dead and all the good (surviving) guys alive? Sure I understand there is karma and punishment, but are those always necessary?

But yes, I would be very surprised if she survived by the end of season 4.

Oh, and yes, it could be against Scratch's nature to talk to Pegs, but what if she doesn't have a choice? You can always torture her with Pegs doing a hippie routine on her, talking about love and plants and happiness.

[LiamKerrington]

Hi there,

mh. I would not mind, if Scratch survives it. After all WA is a story of survival ... ;)
And when I expect Scratch to die, then I don't refer to karma and punishment; I just look at the odds: she has plenty of enemies outside and inside the colony ... Some enemies know they are the enemies of Scratch; other enemies of Scratch will find out as soon as either all the deceiving and lies Scratch keeps up are uncovered or Scratch hurts "the wrong" persons (like Durai). And then keep the zombie-apocalypse outside the colony in mind ... So there is a lot of potential to kill Scratch, and that is why I expect this to happen - but actually no sooner then by the advanced season four or even by the end of season four; before this it would be no good.
Also think of the "standard issue" evil guy in stories - they die; they just do it, because it is part of the job-description for "the evil guy" in stories ... But yeah, KC may have changed this, and we don't know (yet) ... But we will know at the end of season #4 ... :D

A "hippie-routine-torture" on Scratch? Ha, that would be quite a surprise and probably pretty funny; I did not think of something like this. I just look backwards up unti WA #32-1; and all I see is that Scratch always tries to keep or establish control over things and that she really has freaked out upon the death of Latch; and I just don't see it that Scratch would agree on such a dialogue or willfully would seek this kind of solution (talking to Pegs). Four months after the fall of the tower and five months after the death of Latch Scratch still is focusses on finding the tower-folk or/ and especially Pegs ... I am quite confused about the purpose of why someone is so eager to find out where the rest of the tower-folk might be, and probably it really is only about finding Pegs and making sure she is dead (just look at how many people have died because of this single personal goal of Scratch's.). Although Durai seems to finally start to have doubts about the personal agenda of Scratch's, she may go on - for example by killing Angel (a family-member) and torturing Burt. No, I don't think Scratch would willfully even think about talking to Pegs to finally find peace ...
But strange things have happened. What, if Lizzy or Durai or whoever is actually able to change Scratch's mind insofar that she would be willing to talk? To be honest: I would not like this; Scratch is too much "the" evil within the ranks of natural-human-survivors in this whole WA story ...

All the best!
Liam

[Tales from Valhalla]

Hmm... I had the impression that Durai was OK with knowing where the tower people are, but thinks that Burt is a waste of time/energy to ask. I'm still not sure WHY everyone was so obsessed with Our Tower, they had little to none supplies during the war... Was it for the slave factor? Did they think this tower was The Other Tower and they had a way to camouflage all the neat things the Mallers knew CJ had? The only thing that came out of the war was Scratch turning into a crazy psycho extreme that only thinks of Pegs now.

I guess the only redeemable maller will be Bricks in the end.

[LiamKerrington]

Hi there,

maybe I misunderstand Durai; I wouldn't want to bet on what he really thinks and what his motivations really look like. Having him considering that keeping Burt for whatever purpose would be a waste of time, I took this as an indication for him not really being intersted in anything regarding The Tower anymore; maybe he is OK with it, but maybe only for as long as this does not interfere with his plans.

I guess some of the reasons why The Mallers are so interested in The Tower are those:
first and foremost: from the perspective of The Mallers' The Tower-folk stole a tanker-rig; and I don't really think that they simpyl think in terms of "you violated our countryside"; I think they are pretty pissed off of The Tower-folk because having stolen the truck might have affected the plan to burn down the arena;
then at the time at which The Mallers engaged The Tower-folks they were building up; they probably needed slaves or people doin' the dirty work;
finally I could imagine that maybe, just maybe The Mallers were simply interested in scavenging as many ressources as possible; engaging The Tower might have held the opportunity to get whatever food and guns available, because The Mallers really could not know what exactly The Tower held as ressources; the only thing they saw was kind of an enclave in which other survivors were able to defend themselves against the zombies.

Would you agree? Or do you think I miss something?

Anyway: No, The Mallers did not confuse The Tower with The Other Tower. As we have learned from the backstory of Kalani The mallers knew exactly who they would have to deal with ...

All the best!
Liam

[Tales from Valhalla]

Hi there,

maybe I misunderstand Durai; I wouldn't want to bet on what he really thinks and what his motivations really look like. Having him considering that keeping Burt for whatever purpose would be a waste of time, I took this as an indication for him not really being intersted in anything regarding The Tower anymore; maybe he is OK with it, but maybe only for as long as this does not interfere with his plans.

I guess some of the reasons why The Mallers are so interested in The Tower are those:
first and foremost: from the perspective of The Mallers' The Tower-folk stole a tanker-rig; and I don't really think that they simpyl think in terms of "you violated our countryside"; I think they are pretty pissed off of The Tower-folk because having stolen the truck might have affected the plan to burn down the arena;
then at the time at which The Mallers engaged The Tower-folks they were building up; they probably needed slaves or people doin' the dirty work;
finally I could imagine that maybe, just maybe The Mallers were simply interested in scavenging as many ressources as possible; engaging The Tower might have held the opportunity to get whatever food and guns available, because The Mallers really could not know what exactly The Tower held as ressources; the only thing they saw was kind of an enclave in which other survivors were able to defend themselves against the zombies.

Would you agree? Or do you think I miss something?

Anyway: No, The Mallers did not confuse The Tower with The Other Tower. As we have learned from the backstory of Kalani The mallers knew exactly who they would have to deal with ...

All the best!
Liam

In a way I agree, but if they were really interested in scavenging useful materials, the execution of the plan was a bit crappy. Those pipe bombs (I wouldn't consider the fire being part of the plan because it was all Scratch's doing) could easily destroy the useful stuff. In the end Riley's shop was a mess and the water supply was very low. My guess is their main purpose was to get more slaves (and let me tell about how crappy this idea is... haven't Durai read anything about the Roman Empire? Dark Ages? Anything with angry masses and a small army of tyrants?), guns and ammo. Still... from all we know about Our Tower and their struggle to survive and find food and everything, sounds like such a crappy plan, for example, like sending 20 men to beat up Skittles for his supplies. You expose you army to the zombies, you waste ammo, gas and whatnots for a small percentage of what you really need. The more I see of Durai's plans and even CJ's, the more I like Michael & CO.'s plans of surviving.

Wait, are you sure they knew that there were 2 towers? Its been a while since I heard the Kalani's confession segment, but I remember something like... him thinking that the mallers didn't know how The Other Tower looked like or where it was, so he could give them anything saying "yes, this is them, come here" and the mallers would come.

[LiamKerrington]

Hi there,

yeah, you have some really valid points about crappy engagement and stuff. Obviously they did not expect such a heavy resistance on tower two and obviously they considered The Tower-folk as kind of weirdos d-bags or something. And yes, I absolutely agree: considering the z-pocalypse any engagement of this size is basically kind of bs and nonsense ...

About knowledge of the two towers:
- Kalani was forced into getting into CJ's tower in the first half of June; he was also captured by the zeds during this "campaign"; so here we know that The Mallers knew about CJ's tower so far
- by the end of June Durai and Scratch appear at "our" Tower and start some conversation with Michael, who refuses to get involved into too much talking
- then a few days later Kalani was rescued and joined "our" Tower; he uses his chances to inform The Mallers about the party and the opportunity to attack.

I think I need to re-listen to chapter 27, in which everything evolving around Kalani is explained; and I think here we will find the detailed information, about which tower he was supposed to infiltrate; knowing this will give us the answer, whether The Mallers confused the towers as being one and the same or knew about two different towers.

All the best!
Liam

[Tales from Valhalla]

Oh damn you with all your reasonable facts! :D

And here I was thinking how sick Kalani's betrayal was. I mean, it would be heavy stuff if he said "potato potatoes... Tower, Other Tower..." and gave the mallers what they wanted without telling them it wasn't really the original tower. But following your timeline, sounds right, the mallers had known Burt, Lizzie and Saul by then.

[LiamKerrington]

Hi there,


Oh damn you with all your reasonable facts! :D

And here I was thinking how sick Kalani's betrayal was. I mean, it would be heavy stuff if he said "potato potatoes... Tower, Other Tower..." and gave the mallers what they wanted without telling them it wasn't really the original tower. But following your timeline, sounds right, the mallers had known Burt, Lizzie and Saul by then.

Hehehe. Anytime! :D
Just check the Wiki, and there the subsection called "timeline" (or something); this helped me a lot on my recent posting.

Now I have listened to chapter 27 again; and in it we learn from Kalani's notes that he and his child were captured b The Mallers; Scratch took Hannah hostage and forced Kalani to infiltrate the tower "somewhere in this region", because the Mallers have seen "several convoys" moving in that region.
Ok, so far this was quite open for interpretation, I think. But considering that CJ's men found Kalani and let him join this particular tower lets me conclude that this was actually the originally intended tower by The Mallers and/ or Scratch.
Especially when the place was heavily attacked by the zeds and Kalani was left alone / dropped by Scratch ("You better start running ..."), all the crazy shit that happened to him seem to skyrocket. Hours later he was captured by the zed; and many days to some weeks later he met Datu while improsened in the arena ... So I think it is quite valid to assume that The Mallers, who never heard of Kalani up to this point again, had dropped any other plans about this first tower, because they probably considered this place as being "fallen and scavenged" by the Zeds. But we'll never know, because there was no real mentioning about this anymore by The Mallers ...

Then the crazy things start to kick in: We have the "theft" of the rig (so first encounter between The Mallers and "our" Tower; soon afterwards Durai and Scratch start some "diplomacy"; then Kalani joins "our" Tower, and BANG ... War happens, because Kalani has informed The Mallers about the party, has neutralised Bill in a somewhat quite intelligent way etc. And all this in the vein hope to get Hannah back ... Poor bastard.

:D

KC does an incredible job. It's really long ago that I was captured by such a nice, intense and multi-layered story. +1

All the best!
Liam