Do we have a definitive answer? v.AliveOrUndead?

[Osiris]

I'm curious about this since the 'little ones' thread, as well as the 'swimming zombies' thread. Has we gotten conclusive evidence that points toward the zombies being either alive or undead?

If not, what do you think? Alive? Undead? WTF BBQ? I want to know!

[reaper239]

all the other zed we've seen up to this point have been alive, makes sense that they would be too.

[Osiris]

But what about the ones coming up from under water during the Great Yacht Escape? Those couldn't have been alive. I swear I heard Michael mention a dark mass underwater at one point. They wouldn't be breathing water if they were alive.

[yarri]

But what about the ones coming up from under water during the Great Yacht Escape? Those couldn't have been alive. I swear I heard Michael mention a dark mass underwater at one point. They wouldn't be breathing water if they were alive.



We've seen adaptations of the zombies based on environment it would stand to reason that gills could be added

[nikvoodoo]

But what about the ones coming up from under water during the Great Yacht Escape? Those couldn't have been alive. I swear I heard Michael mention a dark mass underwater at one point. They wouldn't be breathing water if they were alive.


But at the same time we've also seen them metabolize some wicked ether faster than any person could, jump out of a 2nd or 3rd story window, jump across the distance of two buildings, nearly chase down a car, not react to being shot with an arrow...They seem to be able to push the boundaries of the human body to beyond it's limits.

So if they are capable of pushing themselves past normal limits, they could in theory make it from the island underwater, perhaps stopping for air a ways away from the yacht.

[Osiris]

But at the same time we've also seen them metabolize some wicked ether faster than any person could, jump out of a 2nd or 3rd story window, jump across the distance of two buildings, nearly chase down a car, not react to being shot with an arrow...They seem to be able to push the boundaries of the human body to beyond it's limits.

So if they are capable of pushing themselves past normal limits, they could in theory make it from the island underwater, perhaps stopping for air a ways away from the yacht.

It's entirely possible, though I would again question that logic, knowing that the 'newer models' have so far only been seen in certain areas, and not down South--or wherever the hell the Colony was located. I vaguely recall something to that effect. Using that as the model for successive generations and based off what was found in the hospital, it makes it less likely that they are 'advanced'. Mostly likely they are O.G. Zeds, possibly from a place Kalani may have been. I don't have the answers, only more questions.

[HardKor]

I've gotta go with the "alive" option. We've seen them sleep and they appear to need to eat to survive (the withered ones on the island, looked to be starving). The regular varieties seem to go down from shots not just to the head but to the chest also. And they seem to have some sort of pheromone response (slobbering and drooling over the sweat bottles). All these seem to indicate a "living" thing as opposed to reanimated dead.

As far as the special varieties are concerned, I think they were the results of some sort of medical testing. Big, tank-like, behemoths, runners, jumpers, etc: they all have something special that could be useful to whoever designed them. And for the swimmers, we never got a real good description of them. They might just be regular ones that were in the water and maybe they all have the ability to hold their breath for long periods of time, would help to explain the adaptation to Michale's homemade chloroform. Or maybe they are another special type with the ability to hold their breath and swim really fast.
And last but not least, the little ones I think are Ink's crazy little addition to zombie taxonomy. Chapter 23 seems to point pretty strongly in that direction.

[Osiris]

Intersting points.

[Wicked Sid]

We could also note that they do digest whatever they eat due to the fact that we have not seen any Zeds with grotesquely engorged stomachs filled with flesh.

Do they share their meals? Or do they just take what they get, like lions?

[trubkir]

But what about the ones coming up from under water during the Great Yacht Escape? Those couldn't have been alive. I swear I heard Michael mention a dark mass underwater at one point. They wouldn't be breathing water if they were alive.


Well it's confusing because that was the exact same thought that crossed my mind. Then Michael and Pegs make the observation that the zombies look emaciated so then I'm thinking if they are starving they are alive

[trubkir]

So since I have a test on Monday I have been thinking of nothing else but this alive vs dead thread. Since CJ at the Dunbar Apartments heard Pinstripes say "Leave her" only one conclusion can be made in my opinion. Pinstripes is based on a human and the only way humans can vocalize is to move air over vocal chords. This air movement is on an exhalation phase of respiration. If the thing breathes it is alive. I think the ones underwater surface briefly to get air like any other air breathing creature that happens to be aquatic.

[Osiris]

So since I have a test on Monday I have been thinking of nothing else but this alive vs dead thread. Since CJ at the Dunbar Apartments heard Pinstripes say "Leave her" only one conclusion can be made in my opinion. Pinstripes is based on a human and the only way humans can vocalize is to move air over vocal chords. This air movement is on an exhalation phase of respiration. If the thing breathes it is alive. I think the ones underwater surface briefly to get air like any other air breathing creature that happens to be aquatic.


Just because a thing can move its diaphram to work its lungs does NOT mean it is alive. The dead have walked, eaten, moaned and 'sensed' our presence all through the history of zombie films/legend/stories/whatever. The ability to work their lungs is moan/talk/order a chilidog does not make them alive.

[Tielurrdee]

My question is if they eat and eat and eat where's all zeepoop

[yarri]

Just because a thing can move its diaphram to work its lungs does NOT mean it is alive. The dead have walked, eaten, moaned and 'sensed' our presence all through the history of zombie films/legend/stories/whatever. The ability to work their lungs is moan/talk/order a chilidog does not make them alive.


dead things don't sleep, or make breath in cold air. I can't remember the exact time stop but it was in the Season 1 New Arrivals.

Dead things also do not adapt to chemicals like chloroform there is no need to adapt to a chemical when you're dead.

[Osiris]

dead things don't sleep, or make breath in cold air. I can't remember the exact time stop but it was in the Season 1 New Arrivals.

Dead things also do not adapt to chemicals like chloroform there is no need to adapt to a chemical when you're dead.

I have two problems with that.

1. They are moving, often at an unnatural speed--as unnatural as any dead thing moving--and as we know, moving parts generate heat. That's just basic science at work there. So there is a possibility, however slight it may be, that their bodies generate a small amount of heat and any heat produced would have an affect on the air within the lung cavities. We're also talking zombies here, so it's not like there is conclusive science about how their bodies behave. Every author takes their own liberties, so who is to say for certain. If we're going to argue that dead things don't do any of the above, we're also going to argue that there are no such things as zombies. We've got to roll with the punches at some point and if we're drawing lines in the sand and base it in hard science, we have to stop talking about zombies entirely.

2. There is also no need to eat when you're dead, learn how to use tools, stand up and chase the living... but we've seen all that before as well.

[zedhead]

on the one hand zombies need food, which means that they are dependant on certain bodily functions, on another burt shoots the pinstriped one twice center of mass without incident, so my theory is that they are able to utilize their digestive system, but not their circulatory, maybe making them more dependant on it?

[wooly]

We have enough story clues to determine that the creatures (1) breathe (2) have brain function (3) have some degree of functional circulation, implying a beating heart (4) retain some of the same metabolic functions as humans

Michael's anesthesia experiments during the GPS tagging confirm all of the above. For gas anesthesia to work you have to breathe it in, transfer it to circulation via gas exchange in the lungs, transfer the drug to the brain & body via the circulation. The creatures rapidly adapted to the drug which indicates some hepatic or renal function (again proving circulation as a corollary) as drugs are typically metabolized and excreted via a combination of those two systems.

Therefore, the creatures are not "zombies" in the traditional dead sense of the word. They are alive in some sense, just not normal humans.

This works from a physiology standpoint.

[7oddisdead]

to this..ill throw the "invasion of the body snatchers" theory.

What if the host is dead...but the virus is living..all the above could be explained

[Robzombie]

Higher brain functions are kaput, but those whos brain are wired differently, such as Ink who is a schizophrenic are affected differently and apparently have maintained some order of higher brain function (ha can plan and set traps, he can talk, set fires, has extrodinary reflexes (he caught an arrow and avoided a bullet more than once!)). If the host were dead, utterly and completly, than pretty much all the zombies would be the same but those like Ink are different because some original brain function has remained.

[riskbreaker23]

I voted Alive only because of an "incubation" period that the George Romero Zombie virus seems to have that WA lacks. During this incubation period, the carrier physically dies. WA has no such transition, it's most of the time instant. However, I put an addendum; I do believe that the carrier of the WA disease, virus, mutation, what have you, is in fact dead. In my opinion it comes with the fact that whatever mutation or effect the virus... whatever we call it (seriously KC this is getting difficult to talk about! More DETAILS :) causes the carrier to be gone. There's no conciousness and to me that is REALLY what being alive is. That person is gone forever. Dead.

Though I voted for alive, I just have to add my two cents that in the end they are in fact "D-E-D... DEAD!" (points if you get the reference).

[7oddisdead]

I voted Alive only because of an "incubation" period that the George Romero Zombie virus seems to have that WA lacks. During this incubation period, the carrier physically dies. WA has no such transition, it's most of the time instant. However, I put an addendum; I do believe that the carrier of the WA disease, virus, mutation, what have you, is in fact dead. In my opinion it comes with the fact that whatever mutation or effect the virus... whatever we call it (seriously KC this is getting difficult to talk about! More DETAILS :) causes the carrier to be gone. There's no conciousness and to me that is REALLY what being alive is. That person is gone forever. Dead.

Though I voted for alive, I just have to add my two cents that in the end they are in fact "D-E-D... DEAD!" (points if you get the reference).

I like your thinking.

Robin hood, men in tights

[Solanine]

Definitely alive, they would decay otherwise. Also in the chapter on the boat we saw that they could become malnourished if my memory serves me right.

[Travis Sutak]

We could also note that they do digest whatever they eat due to the fact that we have not seen any Zeds with grotesquely engorged stomachs filled with flesh.

Do they share their meals? Or do they just take what they get, like lions?

if you think about it most of the standard zeds hunt like wolves they travel in packs rarely do you see one all by themselves if you see one by itself its usally because their group has been killed

the special varities well behemoths so far have been only hunting by themselves if my memory serves me right the little ones have been seen hunting in groups and them smart ones well they travel with the standards and set traps as for ink well as everyone knows he does whatever he wants whenever wants.

As for the question about alive or dead they were alive they were bitten or whatever happened to change them and they died technically their bodies are not dead but the person they used to be died.

As the creatures they are now they are living breathing organisims they need food to live they still have some things that would make them what is considered living.

[LiamKerrington]

Though I voted for alive, I just have to add my two cents that in the end they are in fact "D-E-D... DEAD!" (points if you get the reference).

The Gamers, early scene in the Inn, when the heroes are addressed by the huge warrior seeking revenge ...

@Topic:
I voted for alive, although I believe it is something between life and death.
The idea with the body-snatchers seems to be at least a valid theory.

What we have with the zombies, are these things:
some kind of air-circulation
bio-chemical processes (reactions to chloroform, hormons)
behaviour controlled by certain "conditions" - the cry of pinstripe to gather the hordes and make them attack, his order to "leave her alone"
some kind of organized behaviour (the whole prisoner behavior, capturing of people instead of simply killing them, applying to certain creatures (pinstripes being the boss, evading the behemoths))
biological evolving/ mutation/ development (little ones of 6-7' in height ...)

But what, if all these things do not root in the zeds' individual motivation and bio-function, and what, if all this is kind of controlled "from the outside" - like with a parasite or nanobots or something? Or in a different directioN: What, if the Zeds are mutated versions of humans making them kind of "fungi"; afaik there is some debate around fungi, whether they are kind of a life-form or something else; same with viruses actually ... All of these things obey to the rules behind "bio", and yet they lack certain aspects of "bio" (sorry, too long ago, it's just bits and pieces from my time back in school more then 15 years ago).

From earlier chapters we know that the dead bodies of people still sit in their cars - days after the Zed-apocalypse started. Therefore the Zeds don't seem to be interested in simply devouring people. Dead bodies don't seem to suit "their" purposes - who- or whatever "they" are, the Zeds, their "parasites" or the organized company/ organization behind them ...

All the best!
Liam

[Witch_Doctor]

From earlier chapters we know that the dead bodies of people still sit in their cars - days after the Zed-apocalypse started. Therefore the Zeds don't seem to be interested in simply devouring people. Dead bodies don't seem to suit "their" purposes - who- or whatever "they" are, the Zeds, their "parasites" or the organized company/ organization behind them ...

All the best!
Liam

Excellent point! I wonder if Tanya was going somewhere with this when she questions why they had to burn Pippen insted of just burying him.

[Witch_Doctor]

It's hard enough deciding on what constitutes life, but what constitutes un-dead?

[LiamKerrington]

It's hard enough deciding on what constitutes life, but what constitutes un-dead?

I really have no clue. But from a legal point of view there are legal-scientists around - like Adam Chodorow - which propose creating special tax-laws for the undead, since they somewhere between the living and the dead ...
http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=2045255

edit: And this paper really is amazing to read ... It covers some basic tax-related questions aiming at zombies, but also about ghosts and vampires ...

All the best!
Liam

[Tielurrdee]

Well um KC gave it away on his interview with radio drama revival if you check it out you will catch that he specificity something about he wanted to make a zombie podcast with alive zombies. You know I was pretty positive there alive based on the title of the story being were alive. I always saw it as a double for the tower saying were alive and the zombies being alive.

[Osiris]

Well um KC gave it away on his interview with radio drama revival if you check it out you will catch that he specificity something about he wanted to make a zombie podcast with alive zombies. You know I was pretty positive there alive based on the title of the story being were alive. I always saw it as a double for the tower saying were alive and the zombies being alive.

Pfffft. Kc doesn't know anything. He's just as lost as we are in all this.


:hsugh:

[thisonegirl]

I'm curious about this since the 'little ones' thread, as well as the 'swimming zombies' thread. Has we gotten conclusive evidence that points toward the zombies being either alive or undead?

If not, what do you think? Alive? Undead? WTF BBQ? I want to know!


Well, for me it was between Alive and WTF BBQ? Actually, the reason that I believe they're alive is because, the transformation is almost instant in most cases. There is no dying then coming back as a Zombie. Not to mention that I don't think Ink is a Zombie, he's just a crazy muthafucka that found a way to communicate. But that's me.

[LiamKerrington]

Well um KC gave it away on his interview with radio drama revival if you check it out you will catch that he specificity something about he wanted to make a zombie podcast with alive zombies. You know I was pretty positive there alive based on the title of the story being were alive. I always saw it as a double for the tower saying were alive and the zombies being alive.

Then they have to pay taxes ... :cool:

[Kc]

Just 2 cents... The interview didn't give anything away really. I guess a lot of it falls into how you define "dead"...

[Tielurrdee]

Yeah per say if your in the state of considered zombie you might as well be dead. I guess my wording was poor as usual. I guess I just figured you were aiming towards something that was more alive then a slow grunting no energy zombie

[Osiris]

Well, for me it was between Alive and WTF BBQ? Actually, the reason that I believe they're alive is because, the transformation is almost instant in most cases. There is no dying then coming back as a Zombie. Not to mention that I don't think Ink is a Zombie, he's just a crazy muthafucka that found a way to communicate. But that's me.

Anyone remember where Tommy was shot?

[Osiris]

Just 2 cents... The interview didn't give anything away really. I guess a lot of it falls into how you define "dead"...

I'll see your 2 cents and raise you. I don't believe a word you say. I think you're trying to trick me. :squint:

[Penguine]

Osiris.... Tommy was shot in the tower. :-)

Anyway... I believe it was an upper body shot. Although they seem to know head shots kill our heros still shoot the body, wasting ammo. Pinstripes should have been toast episodes ago, but no Burt shot him in the chest.

[Penguine]

I would go with alive-ish. When Micheal called out "Randy" the zombie did stop and look, as if responding to his name.

[Osiris]

Osiris.... Tommy was shot in the tower. :-)

Anyway... I believe it was an upper body shot. Although they seem to know head shots kill our heros still shoot the body, wasting ammo. Pinstripes should have been toast episodes ago, but no Burt shot him in the chest.

So how quickly would he have died? Does the virus react faster if the host is mortally wounded?

[7oddisdead]

Hmm...very interesting...also did the bullet go through Tommy first....or Saul?

[turbo]

Hmm...very interesting...also did the bullet go through Tommy first....or Saul?

the bullet was lodged in Saul, so most likely, Tommy First.

[Osiris]

Hmm...very interesting...also did the bullet go through Tommy first....or Saul?

Todd, be mute.

[7oddisdead]

.. .... ........, ...

[LiamKerrington]

Hi there,


So how quickly would he have died? Does the virus react faster if the host is mortally wounded?

good question.
I understand it that the "zed-factor" (whatever it is - virus, mutagen, biochemical agent, bacteria, fungus, a cocktail of those, a devil's lil secret) may react instantly with the host/ victim; and yet the host's/victim's body need to attune to the Zed-thing, which takes time. Tommy was a perfect example of showing this. Also Tanya described experiments with a victim who took an amount of time to transform. Even the "little ones" reflect this to some degree, because there seems to be an ongoing process of mutation or "bodily development" within at least the "little ones"; and yes, it remains a question whether the little ones were humans once ...
Anyway: I guess as long as the zed-factor has not interacted with the victim's body up to a certain degree, I guess you may "save" the poor bastard by killing him before he is transmuted into a zombie ...

All the best!
Liam

[Witch_Doctor]

Do they poop? They have been described as smelling like shit. I was reading another Z story where the zombies walked and defecated on themselves like horses walking and crapping.

Otherwise, all of that flesh they consume will just sit in their bellies, fermenting decomposition gases.


:DBlocked and Bloated Anyone?:cool:

[LiamKerrington]

Do they poop? They have been described as smelling like shit. I was reading another Z story where the zombies walked and defecated on themselves like horses walking and crapping.

Otherwise, all of that flesh they consume will just sit in their bellies, fermenting decomposition gases.


:DBlocked and Bloated Anyone?:cool:

At least I hold it as valid that they obviously don't seem to care so much for soap and water ... >.<

[Penguine]

Since the turning process seems slow at times, I wonder if someone was bitten on the arm if you could pin him/her to the ground wrap a tourniquette around the arm to slow/stop blood flow, and then cut that bad boy off?

[Osiris]

Do they poop? They have been described as smelling like shit. I was reading another Z story where the zombies walked and defecated on themselves like horses walking and crapping.

Otherwise, all of that flesh they consume will just sit in their bellies, fermenting decomposition gases.


:DBlocked and Bloated Anyone?:cool:

The Reapers Are The Angels?

[Witch_Doctor]

The Reapers Are The Angels?

The Killing Floor (http://www.amazon.com/The-Killing-Floor-novel-Infection/dp/1618680757/ref=la_B001JS1SCQ_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1344485739&sr=1-1)

[Osiris]

The Killing Floor (http://www.amazon.com/The-Killing-Floor-novel-Infection/dp/1618680757/ref=la_B001JS1SCQ_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1344485739&sr=1-1)

Sounds gross.

[LiamKerrington]

Mh ... Now that Specialist Robbin told us that regulars are being slowed down up to stopped by the cold, does this impact the question if Zeds are alive or dead or the thing inbetween, being either more kind of unalive or the standard issue undead? Are regulars more like reptiles or insects, which act and behave only at certain degrees in temperature thus being alive? Or are they more kind of World War Z zombies being not really dead, but certainly not alive, thus undead?

And since little-ones don't seem to be as affected by the cold like regulars are, is it safe to assume that little-ones are a different species, which seems to be more obvious according to the way they already look and behave?

#33-2 offers a lot of information that might have major impact on WA-zombie-theories ... Thoughts, opinions?

[Cabbage Patch]

Mh ... Now that Specialist Robbin told us that regulars are being slowed down up to stopped by the cold, does this impact the question if Zeds are alive or dead or the thing inbetween, being either more kind of unalive or the standard issue undead? Are regulars more like reptiles or insects, which act and behave only at certain degrees in temperature thus being alive? Or are they more kind of World War Z zombies being not really dead, but certainly not alive, thus undead?

I wish we could have seen what happened to those frozen biters when they thawed out!

[Solanine]

Little ones seem to be "a different species" I'm still having a hard time as a scientist getting my head around the pseudoscience but I managed to accept the physics defying metamorphosis in Alien I can probably accept it here. I'm a big proponent of the "Alive theory" or at least I'd like to put them in the same grey area as viruses and self replicating RNA. My reasoning being if they are "Dead" then according to other zombie productions the laws of physics no longer apply. Eg they can keep on going with out food etc etc.

[Robzombie]

I still think they are deffinately alive as i dont think we have seen a single one come back from being dead...? If you turn, like Tommy did, i assume, before you suffer an injury that bleeds you out, stops your heart or that has damaged your brain you will remain alive, for the most part just like a normal person would. I dont think weve seen a single reanimated corpse.

I know some of you are going to say, "well we dont know for sure if some of those z's are not corpses"....well, what makes one a corpse, or dead? Death, or clinical death, is when blood circulation has stopped and brain function has ceased. These zombies, regardless of how burnt, broken, torn or "dead" they might look, still have blood circulation and brain function, and therefor can also lay claim to the title, "We're Alive".