i am slightly dumbfounded

[reaper239]

i apologize in advance for the abrasive language that i will be using here, but there is a point.

so i just listened to someone solve our illeagal immigration problem. he said, "the reason we have a problem with illegal immigration, is because it is illegal." holy fucking shit, really? it's illegal, because it's illegal? wow. it couldn't possibly have anything to do with the fact that no one has tried to secure the border. or the fact that anytime someone actually tries to enforce, you know, THE LAW, that the fed shut's them down faster than a beefhouse in india (they're largely hindu, in case you didn't catch the joke) i sat for literally minutes, shaking wih disbelief. that statement was comparable to another statement i heard, "if you want to stop employers from hiring illegal immigrants, jusst make it illegal." WHAT?!?! IT IS ILLEGAL! are you a fucking ass? US Code Title 8, CH 12, Sub-chapter II, Part VIII, Section 1324, Sub Section a states: It is unlawful for a person or other entity— (A) to hire, or to recruit or refer for a fee, for employment in the United States an alien knowing the alien is an unauthorized alien (as defined in subsection (h)(3) of this section) with respect to such employment, or

(B)
(i) to hire for employment in the United States an individual without complying with the requirements of subsection (b) of this section or
(ii) if the person or entity is an agricultural association, agricultural employer, or farm labor contractor (as defined in section 1802 of title 29), to hire, or to recruit or refer for a fee, for employment in the United States an individual without complying with the requirements of subsection (b) of this section.


really? make it illegal, that's your answer? um, correct me if i'm wrong, but isn't it also illegal to steal, murder, and destroy? and if that is the case, then why do we have prisons full of people convicted of doing just that? why don't we just make crime illegal if it works so well? oh wait, we did. i was simply shocked that anyone with two braincells to keep each other warm, could say such stupid things. they thought they won at first because i was so utterly shocked, that i literaly could not speak. wow. it feels like more should be said, but i fear i would merely be rambling and reiterating what was previously stated.

rant over

[mathuect]

The issue I have with immigration is that the process is too complicated for legal immigration to be a reasonable option. I have a cousin who has been trying to become a citizen for 7 years now and has hit road block after road block and bureaucracy out the yin yang. He is legally in the country and sponsored for citizenship, yet the process is still taking this long, and is nowhere near complete. That is where the reform needs to be happening.

If it were possible to immigrate legally without having the unreasonably complicated process I think that there would be less illegal immigration. I am by no means saying open the borders and let anyone in, because this would not help anyone. I am saying pass your citizenship test, be or get educated, and pay your taxes. As long as you are not off committing crimes, get to work and pay taxes.

Until then people need to stop going behind Home Depot and hiring people for 2 bucks an hour. Employers need to start using programs to check citizenship which they are already legally required to do.

[reaper239]

i'm not arguing that we need immigration reform. prior to 2001, immigration was a much easier process, the paperwork was much easier to complete and once it was the process merely required time in country to complete. since 2001 the process is much more complicated, for obvious reasons, and requires that we take another look at the hoops we require applicants to jump through. that, however, is not the issue that i raise here. my point was the stupidity of some people i find myself debating with. i would honestly like to know where these people come from. is there a central nest they breed from? do they just appear? perhaps in a pumpkin patch? i agree wholeheartedly that the process needs to be revamped since every immigration related governmental sphincter clamped down like never before after 2001, however, i also want the borders (notice plural) secured. and i don't want to hear about a virtual fence. if a virtual fence worked so well the whitehouse would use one, but you know what they have? wrought iron. anyhow, i didn't mean to rant again.

[mathuect]

The stupidity is easy to explain. People are more willing to watch an entertainment show that calls itself news as their only source of information. Both sides have these programs which are unregulated an able to say whatever they want. The right has FoxNews, which as much as it would like to convince people it is, is not news. It is a commentary program which is not regulated and has been repeatedly caught up in its own lies. I will say this for them, though, they really believe their lies and hold on to them for dear life. The left has MSNBC, which is the same thing on the other spectrum. However they do not claim to be news and admit to not being a news program on many occasions. However if either of these programs is your news source you are out of it.

Also, the school system isnt helping. The schools have switched from educating people to teaching them to pass a test. This happened while I was in school. Sadly it is still going on, while people know that it is not working to educate kids correctly.

The stupidity is part self inflicted, and part pushed upon people by failed systems. Sadly as much as people explain this there are always 20 more people telling them to shut up and turn up the volume to hear their fox news.

[AdrianHD]

There's a lot of things wrong with immigration. In my head, I have no problem if someone by passed the really stupid rules we have for them to become citizens (because as pointed out, it's a flawed system that takes too long). I have no problem with it UNLESS they do the whole, work here and bring money back to Mexico. That hurts us. If they were allowed to stay here, the money would stay circulated here.

Though with the cartel being such an issue, immigration won't be fixed for awhile. It's all stupid, really.

[gaijinpunk]

I'm for the "Great Wall of China" solution myself. And landmines. And trained, attack zombies. Seriously. I am.

Also, if I immigrated to say, France. I would be expected to speak fluent French.
If I immigrated to say, China. I would be expected to speak fluent- Oh, wait! (spelled phonetically) Wa hway shwa eee-dee-are po-tung-qwa. (translation:I can speak Mandarin.) And now you know how to say it too.
If you immigrate to the United States of America, YOU SHOULD HAVE TO BE ABLE TO SPEAK FLUENT #$%&ING ENGLIGH!
And since people ask me so politely...no, I won't press 1 for #$%&ing english!!!

[random_highjinx]

I totally agree with you.

1. Immigration needs to be reformed. It's WAY too difficult to get in legally. When they are desperate to get out of their country border hopping looks REALLY attractive, even if the process could potentially kill them. It's sort of a catch-22 though. We need to make it easy for them to get in so that they can be, for lack of a better turn of phrase, 'tagged and released'. That way they can be taxed. As it stands now, they're getting in and getting freebies out the ass which is what pisses off the majority of Americans it seems.

2. There needs to be harsher enforced punishment for those idiots who pick up cheap manual labor behind Home Depot, or hire these illegals knowing full well that they can't fucking so much as say "Green Card" in English (tarjeta de residente/permiso de residencia doesn't count with me damn it.) But it's hard to enforce this stuff when you've got corporate America's biggest players like the fast food industry sitting on congress and stuff dollars in their pockets.

3. They should be able to speak English with enough proficiency to understand the Miranda Rights and order a pizza. I'm living in Japan right now and I made damn sure that I could speak enough Japanese to understand my rights and shit. ESPECIALLY since they can hold you for 23 days (That is 23 days for each infraction. So say you got drunk in public, got into a fight, and hopped the train. That's 69 days right there they can hold you.), we've had students come back from the police with fricken PTSD symptoms because of being held and questioned day after day till they gave the police the answers they wanted and signed a piece of paper they couldn't read because they had no other choice.

Imho, the US needs to find their pair and stop being so fricken worried about being politically correct and start enforcing it's shit. *end*

[mathuect]

I agree fully with the request to speak english. A common language is a binding factor that brings people together. If you speak another language at home, that is fine (great even as bilingualism is excellent). However, in public settings there needs to be a common language, as the differences lead to implied hostility. If you are living and working in the country, use the language.

Also, we have immigration laws for a reason. Crime and trafficking of illegal things is definitely a concern. We have laws that need to be enforced, but do not make it impossible to follow them.

[reaper239]

i won't say it need to be easy to come into this country, but easier. when this country was founded, it cost $20 to become a citizen, which considering the time, was a substantial amount. it should cost something, but not be discouragingly difficult.

[nikvoodoo]

ohAI! I'mma insert a little left into this conversation.

Fences never work. All they do is make the people trying to get in more creative. The Great Wall of China didn't work, neither will a fence on either border of this country. And really Reaper? Canada? You want to fence off an entire country named Doug? ;)

I understand very much the desire to have everyone speak the official federal language of America....which is......nothing. The United States has no official language. There have been many votes to make one in the past, but it's never made it to law. (Fun factoid: Did you know we once almost passed German as the official language of America because of the sheer amount of Hessian soldiers left behind after the Revolutionary War? The motion was defeated by one vote. How different does history pan out then if we speak the same language as the Germans during the two world wars....). So you're asking people to learn the official language of....nothing. Sure.....That seems fair.

Call me old fashioned, I'm a fan of the big American Melting Pot. I don't care where you're from or how you pronounce the word "blue" (BRUE!!!!!!). If you identify yourself as American and take the right steps: Welcome. As for the people working here illegally: when's the last time you thought of doing remedial labor as a career? This country's strength (sadly) was built on the back of slavery, and now it's the same basic idea, except these "slaves" have chosen the lifestyle and weren't kidnapped and forced into it.

OK. I'll take my lumps from all y'all now.

[Luna Guardian]

Can I participate despite being a communist hippie nazi from Europe?

EDIT: Frak it, I'll do it with or without your permission

I sort of agree with the right on this. Nik's right that there isn't an official federal language in the US (yup, I knew about the German thing also. Funny how education works), but there might as well be. English is by far the dominant language in your country: it's the language of politics, it's the language of business, it's the language of entertainment etc. etc. etc. Not having it as your official language is sort of arguing semantics.

Nik's also right that a wall wouldn't solve all your immmigration problems. People crossed the Berlin wall, and that stuff was way harder than anything you guys can pull, sorry. However, it would cut the illegal immigration heavily and allow for resources to be spent elsewhere. A solid wall is a solid wall, and there're only so many ways to bypass a solid wall.

Now, I'm all for legal immigration. Personally, looking from outside, the US grossly overreacted after 2001 in your treatment of immigrates. If I'd want to get on American soil, I could, and I'm a bloody student with very little disposable income. With resources and half a brain, anyone can. Unless you close your country like N.Korea, you will be vulnerable to infiltration (and we all know there's absolutely no way you could ever do that again).

Still, if people are willing to follow your laws and customs and speak your language, I don't think there should be any barriers for their immigration, whatever the country.

EDITEDIT:
Also, you guys have a ginormous military budget. This is just a thought here, but why not instead of meddling with other peoples' affairs and getting stuck you use some of that military muscle to watch your own borders? Sound reasonable to anyone?

(Or even better, cut the budget and start fixing your economy before you ruin the rest of the world...)

[nikvoodoo]

I sort of agree with the right on this. Nik's right that there isn't an official federal language in the US (yup, I knew about the German thing also. Funny how education works), but there might as well be. English is by far the dominant language in your country: it's the language of politics, it's the language of business, it's the language of entertainment etc. etc. etc. Not having it as your official language is sort of arguing semantics.


oh you must be new here.....arguing semantics is my specialty ;)

[kek]

Just wanted to throw this out there- illegal immigrants still pay taxes, in a way. Whenever you buy something in a store, there is always that tax thrown in at the bottom of your receipt. If they get a job that they have to pay income taxes on, the government gets that too. But when citizens pay these taxes, we get some of it back in the form of Social Security and such. Granted, due to the economic downfall, SS is not what it was. That needs to be reformed too, but that is another point entirely. I am not promoting illegal immigration, I do think they should become citizens, but it is very difficult to do so. But it is not like they 'get freebies out the ass' as highjinx put it. You dont really see illegal immigrants driving sports cars and going to five star restaurants. My dad is a legal immigrant, and that is hard enough keeping his green card current, and it gets expensive for a family of seven.

I agree that a wall will not work how some people expect it to, but sure it could be a deterrent. But illegal immigration should not be our main priority as a country. Our economy is crap, and our funds are not divided evenly. Government aid for college is being cut yet again, but how helpful is that really? Our military has such a high budget, yet so many high school graduates have to forego the higher education of college just because they cannot afford it. How are they expected to get better jobs, if most jobs now require some form of a college degree? There is so much wrong with our system of doing things, but no one with the power to change things seems inclined to do so. Whether it is immigration, or the lack of affordable higher education (which leads to the stupidity part of the post reaper pointed out) there are plenty of problems, and it doesn't look like much of anything is going to be changed any time soon. Tangent over.
That is all I have to say. For now.

[yarri]

ohAI! I'mma insert a little left into this conversation.


OK. I'll take my lumps from all y'all now.


Ok I'll don my tin foil hat..

I say we bring home ALL our troups.. place them right on the southern boarder cause lets face it... The good people of Canada don't want to invade us or immigrate illegally.. We anex Mexico and make it the 51st state.. clean it up watch every "new citizen" 's first learned english word be "UNION" wages go up we get a new source of tax revenue and no more illegal immigration cause it would be the 51st state...


Ok, seriously, my own personal feelings are that anyone that border jumps is disrespectful as hell to anyone that goes through the paces of becoming a US citizen legally. I agree with anyone that said its damn hard to become a citizen. I'll pose a question.. "Why did it become so hard to become a citizen? It was easier not that long ago right?"

[yarri]

Can I participate despite being a communist hippie nazi from Europe?

EDITEDIT:
Also, you guys have a ginormous military budget. This is just a thought here, but why not instead of meddling with other peoples' affairs and getting stuck you use some of that military muscle to watch your own borders? Sound reasonable to anyone?

(Or even better, cut the budget and start fixing your economy before you ruin the rest of the world...)

Amen! how much was it we spent bombing Libya and turning it into a new potential Muslim super power? Had we taken that money and used it instead to reinforce our flagging education system which btw is a massive joke maybe we could compete in the world market better. Personally, I agree I would like to see the world run itself and not 1. ask for handouts from us and 2. have us roll in with American troops and firepower and fight wars we weren't invited to..


P.S. You're my favorite communist hippie

[gaijinpunk]

No lumps NV! Only discussion!

Think Great Wall of China with mini-guns, rocket launchers, thermal sensors and pressure sensitive explosives. Just sayin...

Also! I agree that America is a melting pot of cultures and ALWAYS SHOULD BE! Far too many brave men and women have died for us to ever consider changing that in any way, for any reason. However-r-r-r-, when half the phone calls you make (or more) require you to press 1 for English? Something is wrong with that. Press uno for Espanol, I could understand...

[mathuect]

Never said it was the official language voodoo, I am saying it should be as a national language would be unifying. I think that in a public setting a national language would avoid the default to insult that many people get when they do not understand what is being said. I would not be opposed to there being a national language other than English, though I think it would be more difficult to install as the majority of the citizens speak English already.

I am a HUGE fan of the melting pot myself. I love that there are so many cultures that have blended into the US. Fences do not work, and are impossible to keep up with. Remodeling is a huge industry in this country, and my family is part of that industry. It is a hugely profitable career if you are not being undersold by people who are not able to work legally. As I have said before immigration needs to be encouraged and the process made reasonable. That is the most logical way that we can crack down on illegal immigration. Yes, there will still be illegal immigrants as we are a more advanced country than many in our neck of the woods. However, we can not have open free for all borders and expect to avoid cartels and violent criminals from crossing with the good, hard working majority of people.

[nikvoodoo]

I understand the general frustration about language, and I guess I'm just desensitized to it living in New York. In the course of walking one block (if I didn't have my head phones on listening to podcasts like We're Alive) I could easily hear 20 different languages being spoken. I agree (obviously) that English is the primary language of the majority of the country. You can simply lose sight of it living in a neighborhood with Korean bodegas.

Don't get me wrong: Purely open borders is a horrible idea. Everyone coming into this country legally should be documented (as they are), and it should be followed up on to make sure they don't outlast their Visas. I'd obviously prefer this be the way period. I'd much prefer that people didn't feel the need to enter the country illegally but that's never been the case here. Like...ever.

I guess this isn't as big of a hot topic issue for me because Illegal immigrants really can't work in my industry because of the performance unions. I have a hard time imagining an illegal immigrant calling that much attention to them to star in a Broadway show.

[mathuect]

EDITEDIT:
Also, you guys have a ginormous military budget. This is just a thought here, but why not instead of meddling with other peoples' affairs and getting stuck you use some of that military muscle to watch your own borders? Sound reasonable to anyone?

(Or even better, cut the budget and start fixing your economy before you ruin the rest of the world...)

I would agree here if it wasn't for the fact that it is illegal for the US Military to operate inside the borders of the US. There are exceptions under martial law or what not, but in normal circumstances the military is not able to perform aggressive action within our borders. That is why the National Guard was created in the states (headed by the governors of individual states, not the president). However our borders are patrolled by the.. wait for it, its clever... border patrol. They are the ones that need more funding, as with the INS. However, I am more for making it easier for people to get here legally, than for hunting down and capturing the ones that are here now unless there is a real threat to civilians from that person.


Just wanted to throw this out there- illegal immigrants still pay taxes, in a way. Whenever you buy something in a store, there is always that tax thrown in at the bottom of your receipt. If they get a job that they have to pay income taxes on, the government gets that too.

I would like to point out that parts of this are flawed.

Sales tax- This is a tax on the sales in an area, as you know. They are set by local or state governments (there is no national sales tax thankfully). Many areas state nor local governments collect a sales tax.

Income tax- Taxes on the income of an employee require a social security number to be collected. As illegal immigrants do not have a social security number there are 3 options. Use a fake one, which is complicated and will get you caught. You could use someone's number which is not you, also going to get you caught. A more reasonable option is to work jobs that pay under the table. These jobs are infamous for hiring illegal immigrants, though not all people who work these jobs are illegal. They are baby sitting, Unclaimed maids/butlers, Unclaimed lawn work or remodeling, ect. These jobs also pay no income tax.

The way that I see that one could argue that they all do pay taxes is with property taxes. This is a stretch in its own right, but works in extended logic. They often rent property from a landlord. Though renters do not pay taxes, the money they pay their landlord is put toward the property tax.


I agree that a wall will not work how some people expect it to, but sure it could be a deterrent.

I agree a wall would keep some people thinking twice, but it will also be a huge money waster. Walls can be scaled unless you suggest having a armed guard every few feet. Even if you keep it to just a wall theory the elements and people will cause damage to the wall constantly which will have to be replaced. A wall or fence (even electric) sounds like a good idea, but the practice of it is not a reasonable solution.


Our economy is crap, and our funds are not divided evenly. Government aid for college is being cut yet again, but how helpful is that really? Our military has such a high budget, yet so many high school graduates have to forego the higher education of college just because they cannot afford it. How are they expected to get better jobs, if most jobs now require some form of a college degree? There is so much wrong with our system of doing things, but no one with the power to change things seems inclined to do so. Whether it is immigration, or the lack of affordable higher education (which leads to the stupidity part of the post reaper pointed out) there are plenty of problems, and it doesn't look like much of anything is going to be changed any time soon.

That is why people are in the streets all over the country. And it isn't that jobs require college, because not all of them do. It is that there are not enough jobs of any kind to handle the rate of unemployment. There are places that you can not get hired at McDonalds because the layed off rocket scientist, the 700 people that were layed off from the factory that closed down last week, and the teachers that just had their contract cut for budget purposes are all competing with you for the 5 openings in the area. All the while the people who make the decisions are sucking the money out of the companies like a vacuum cleaner. Then the company can say that they hired such and such people this year and other breaks causing them to not pay taxes at all, and in some cases actually get money back from the government. It's a messed up system, and it has not always been that way. It is a new development in my lifetime.

[reaper239]

btw folks the reason i mentioned canadia is that they have a border that is twice as long as the mexican border guarded by half the personnel. true we don't really have a problem with illegals from canadia, however if someone wanted to infiltrate the country with out being noticed at all, the canadian border would be it. besides that, mathuect's above argument is almost verbatim what i was going to say. minus the fence piece, we are apparently in almost complete agreement. i would like to point out that barbed wire makes a fence harder to scale, electrifying problem sections would help, and cameras would notify of breaches. as far as money wasters go, have you looked at the department of education?

moving on, nik made a comment regarding the melting pot. i embrace the melting, having lived in europe for a number of years as a youth, i have come to learn the enriching qualities of learning about and embracing other cultures, however one cultural trait i could do without, is the trait of illegal immigrants coming to my country, breaking the law btw (hence the "illegal"), and then somehow garnering pity for their plight as underpaid "exploited" workers. why don't we show pity for the hard working americans who lost their jobs and can't find another because we have an estimated 11 million illegals here soaking up jobs. and what kills me is, we have a welfare system (granted, i don't think the state should be issuing welfare, but that's beside the point, and a topic for a different thread) and we have hard working single mothers finding themselves on the street who can't get help because their benefits are taken by some illegals. how is that right? and we wonder why people are starting to really resent our mexican population, illegal or not.

regarding taxes, i pay taxes. nearly 20% of my check is taken out in taxes, with state and federal. those taxes go to pay for a welfare program that supports illegal immigrants and bums who are to lazy to get a job but can't anyway because we have 11 million illegal immigrants. do you see now why i'm upset? it's not fair to me, or any of the other law abiding citizens who don'tcheat on their taxes, don't steal pens from work, and look both ways at stop signs (i know you're out there). i'm not asking for a perfect system here, but the pursuit of perfection is better than wallowing in filth because perfection is unattainable. all i want is for someone to take reasonable action towards securing the borders. and honestly, is that too much to ask?

[AdrianHD]

The problem with your wall is that there have been, and probably will be more, tunnels that lead from America to Mexico. Not only that, but the money is corruption to some border control people. It's not even for money that some immigrants want to stay here, it's for safety.

Taxes are a whole other beast. We can talk welfare and how that system needs a 110% reform because there are some people who even on YouTube make enough to live fine, yet they also get welfare on top of that.

[reaper239]

again, immigrants i have no problems with; four generations ago my grandparents immigrated to this country, the difference is, they did it legally, and they worked hard and paid their dues when they got here. my problem is with illegal immigrants who bypass our laws and cheat the system and steal from my country.

also, my friend came up with a great idea to help deter border hopping: take new graduates from basic training, largely infantry, and post them at the border. make a certain distance from the border a free fire zone. i found the suggestion quite comical.

[mathuect]

reaper, I have agreed with just about everything that you have said, but I can't let that one slide. The fact that you say that you find that suggestion comical is disgusting. I am all for finding a way to control illegal immigration but murdering civilians crossing the border is in no way, shape, or form an action that I would be willing to see the country I love take part in. Human life is more precious than that. Take a second to think about what you said, and if you still find that action humorous I pity you as a person.

Not only would that action be inhumane in every way, it would also break rules of war that we help hold all other countries to. That suggestion is offesive, and luckily, out of the question.

[Luna Guardian]

I agree mathuect, shooting the immigrants isn't the way. However, the idea has merit. I know you said that the US military doesn't have jurisdiction within your borders (something we find rather odd, but it's your way and that's ok), but I don't think it's in your constitution (not that I have read it). That legislation could be changed, couldn't it?

There are non-lethal ways of stopping people, even from a distance. These ways could be distributed to the troops on the border. Or you could just deploy your troops ten paces beyond your border on the Mexico side to stay within your laws ;)

[reaper239]

you seem to think that i am advocating shooting everyone coming across the border, this is simply not true. i am advocating defending our country from invasion. you speak of rules of war, well one rule is being able to use force to prevent the unlawful entry into ones country of hostile foreign entities. if someone wonders into the free fire zone, they shouldn't have been there, they were breaking the law. and before you say that they are not hostile, try telling that to the families along the border who are terrorrized by cartel raiding parties who come across the border, illegally, to kidnap, rape, and murder. we have caught several known terrorrists crossing our borders. were they coming here to pick fruit, or were they coming here to do harm? and that's just the ones we've caught. so before you say that idea is cruel and inhumane, consider whether it is humane to let terrorrists cross our borders to do harm, or let gangs cross our borders to terrorrize our citizens. let those who come here legally come, let the rest be held at bay, with bullets if need be.

[reaper239]

btw, luna, the act is posse comitatus. it limits local governments from using the federal military to inforce local laws. the military can act on US soil, but only by act of congress. the act dates back to 1878, but finds it's roots in the USs original distrust of a standing military. back when we were colonies, the british army had, essentially, free reign to act any way they saw fit. originally, under the articles of conferderation, the conferderate government couldn't even raise an army. we would've had to rely on the militia to defend our nation (the militia was instrumental in the revoloution but it is no replacement for a standing army). when the constitution was re-written into a federation, the government was given authority to do things like: levy taxes, regulate interstate and international commerce, and raise a standing army. the insurrection act of 1807 sought to limit the presidents authority to use federal troops to put down lawlessness so as not to be abusive (we are garunteed the right to peacably assemble and protest (reaper's paraphrasing) and an authoritarian in office may view that as insurrection) and posse comitatus further clarifies the limitations and requirments for deployment of federal troops on US soil. interestingly, the navy and marines aren't affected by the act, but are limited by a department of defense directive.

edit: i initially mentioned local government but i didn't tie it together at the end. basically this stops, let's say a state governer, from lobbying the president to deploy federal troops for state, county, or city law enforcement, absent an act of congress.

[yarri]

I'm for annexing Mexico as a new state and we just solve that entire problem..
1. No drug cartel for them because our much stronger military would remove them. Bet that would be a powerful selling point to the people of Mexico who are being violated by this group of savages.
2. Its a war on our own continent i.e. our business as its effecting our southern border with the overflow of drugs, weapons, murder and chaos. (I want us out of any war on foreign soil. We are not the police of the world. The world doesn't want our military, just our money. The hand outs need to stop period (I don't give a flying F if the amount is a very tiny part of our total budget. It can be used to boost our failing school system. Public schools suck so bad right now that we need to do something to them. No child left behind was complete bs
3. We get a new workforce and new group of people to tax.
4. The Mexican people get to be citizens with all the wonderful bennies that the illegals are getting now. So no more illegals. Do you think any of them would work for slave wages if they were citizens? I don't think so.
5. The illegals (now citizens) who used to send money home to "help" their families in Mexico would now be sending money home to their families in the new state of Mexico which would be placed into the economy of the U.S.A. giving us a boost in that way.

[reaper239]

the problem is, a lot of them (bass ackwards as this sounds) don't want to be citizens. the reason is that they don't have to deal with things like income tax, minimum wage (which contributes to the unempoyment rate), and (oddly enough) health insurance. they go to state subsidized hospitals and get medical care on the government dime and then disappear. they couldn't do that if they were citizens. also, i don't want mexico as a state, for much the same reason britain didn't switch over to the euro; it would hurt their economy and mexico would hurt ours. we can't afford that, among other things.

[yarri]

Can we afford the assault on the citizens of the southern states? Or the continued open warfare on our hospitals,job market, our social programs or the schools? A wall sounds lovely but a wall must be maintained with a force stronger then the drug cartels and better equipped. I'm a firm believer in defending my soil, but I hesitate at shooting unarmed women and children that will cross the border.

[reaper239]

once it was announced and established, i think you'd find most men and women loathe to place their childrens lives at risk in that way. and no we cannot afford to continue fighting with criminals in that way, which is why firm action must be taken. and do you honestly feel that annexing mexico would solve the problems we're faceing? i think it would simply create all new ones.

[yarri]

Nah, as I stated in my initial post its a tin foil hat solution. But something more then a wall must be done. There has to be something else Reaper then just a manned wall. Every country in the world is intolerant of illegal immigrants. I would if I were traveling in another country be expected to have my paperwork on me at all times as well as to submit to questioning and reasonable search. Yet here our police in most states can't even ask the question.. "Are you a citizen? Can I see your paperwork" It appears that illegals are better treated with more rights then the citizens of the U.S.A. This idea must stop. In California and I think Oregon or Washington state (I'm tired so my memory is faulty) the illegal children of illegals are now entitled to free college education. This makes me very bitter as a parent as its going to be very difficult to find funding for my own child to got to college. This too must stop. I feel bad for these kids, dragged here like they were. This is the only country they know. They should be offered a path to citizenship in the form of military service, but my child who is a legal born citizen of this country should not be forced to sacrifice her future for a non citizen. We need serious changes in all state and federal law for this to stop.

[mathuect]

As much as some of the people might agree with annexing Mexico, I doubt that the Mexican people would approve of us invading and taking over their country. Good suggestion, but we have tried that in the past, and it did not work out the best. We did get a few states, but the country is big, and has a lot of people that love Mexico. There has to be a way to help the problems, without killing the masses as they cross the border, or deciding we are going to own their country (though I do applaud your idea's non-violent approach yarri :) )

[reaper239]

i agree, we need more than a wall, more than armed forces at the border, we need comprehensive immigration reform. however, no one is willing to do that. look at arizona, they tried to pass a law allowing them to enforce the federal laws, but the fed wouldn't let them. and you guys seem to think that, if we implimented the the free fire zone, that it would be a massacre at the border. well it already is a massacre at the border, except it's our people dying. i think that the best way to stop that is through the implementation of heavy firepower. but to help alleviate your concerns, what if it was a warning protocol? for instance, the men on the line see someone enter the free fire zone, they fire a warning shot, the intruder turns back. the intruder does not turn back, they fire a second warning shot, closer to the target, the intruder turns back. the intruder does not turn back, they shoot to kill. will an "innocent" mother or father risk their lives or the lives of their children under the threat of imminent death? i would certainly hope not. of course we would have to use a little discretion, don't shoot children, etc, but do you really think that hordes of mexicans would run blindly into a hail of bullets? i think not. you dismiss the idea claiming it would be a "slaughter of the innocents" but i disagree. if you cross your neighbors yard every day and then one day your neighbor puts up a sign saying "private property, tresspassers will be shot" are you going to cross your neighbors yard? i would hope not. well guess what mexico: the US is private property, tresspassers may be shot. that's the sign I want to see at the border.

[yarri]

As much as some of the people might agree with annexing Mexico, I doubt that the Mexican people would approve of us invading and taking over their country. Good suggestion, but we have tried that in the past, and it did not work out the best. We did get a few states, but the country is big, and has a lot of people that love Mexico. There has to be a way to help the problems, without killing the masses as they cross the border, or deciding we are going to own their country (though I do applaud your idea's non-violent approach yarri :) )

Actually, I must correct you its a very violent approach and would involve a straight up bloody slugging match of a armed war with possible house by house searches for the member of the drug cartel.

[yarri]

i agree, we need more than a wall, more than armed forces at the border, we need comprehensive immigration reform. however, no one is willing to do that. look at arizona, they tried to pass a law allowing them to enforce the federal laws, but the fed wouldn't let them. and you guys seem to think that, if we implimented the the free fire zone, that it would be a massacre at the border. well it already is a massacre at the border, except it's our people dying. i think that the best way to stop that is through the implementation of heavy firepower. but to help alleviate your concerns, what if it was a warning protocol? for instance, the men on the line see someone enter the free fire zone, they fire a warning shot, the intruder turns back. the intruder does not turn back, they fire a second warning shot, closer to the target, the intruder turns back. the intruder does not turn back, they shoot to kill. will an "innocent" mother or father risk their lives or the lives of their children under the threat of imminent death? i would certainly hope not. of course we would have to use a little discretion, don't shoot children, etc, but do you really think that hordes of mexicans would run blindly into a hail of bullets? i think not. you dismiss the idea claiming it would be a "slaughter of the innocents" but i disagree. if you cross your neighbors yard every day and then one day your neighbor puts up a sign saying "private property, tresspassers will be shot" are you going to cross your neighbors yard? i would hope not. well guess what mexico: the US is private property, tresspassers may be shot. that's the sign I want to see at the border.

Its a patriarchal society to the extent that its difficult to really judge what would happen in a situation like that. Unfortunately the media is all about the graphic violence of the cartels. I believe your assessment is correct it wont be a horde of Mexicans across the border. It will be more like a leaky faucet in drips so easier to contain and deal with.

[reaper239]

Its a patriarchal society to the extent that its difficult to really judge what would happen in a situation like that. Unfortunately the media is all about the graphic violence of the cartels. I believe your assessment is correct it wont be a horde of Mexicans across the border. It will be more like a leaky faucet in drips so easier to contain and deal with.

not entirely true, i believe we can gauge what would happen to some extent, because we have always been a largely patriarchal society. so the question is this: 100 years ago, what would have happened in here with a situation like that?

[yarri]

not entirely true, i believe we can gauge what would happen to some extent, because we have always been a largely patriarchal society. so the question is this: 100 years ago, what would have happened in here with a situation like that?

Your grasp of things like this exceeds my own help me understand.

[reaper239]

well, i'm not an expert in early 1900's culture, that's why i pose the question. i'm just saying, we could have some insight into their mentality because we have, at one time, had a somewhat similar culture. if my great grandmother was alive i could ask her, but for now, just basing off of what i know, i'd have to say that there would be few men willing to put their families through something like that, and out of those families there would be few women who wouldn't vehemently oppose to the point that the expedition wouldn't happen, or would happen without them and their children. but that's just a thought.

[HorrorHiro]

i apologize in advance for the abrasive language that i will be using here, but there is a point.

so i just listened to someone solve our illeagal immigration problem. he said, "the reason we have a problem with illegal immigration, is because it is illegal." holy fucking shit, really? it's illegal, because it's illegal? wow. it couldn't possibly have anything to do with the fact that no one has tried to secure the border. or the fact that anytime someone actually tries to enforce, you know, THE LAW, that the fed shut's them down faster than a beefhouse in india (they're largely hindu, in case you didn't catch the joke) i sat for literally minutes, shaking wih disbelief. that statement was comparable to another statement i heard, "if you want to stop employers from hiring illegal immigrants, jusst make it illegal." WHAT?!?! IT IS ILLEGAL! are you a fucking ass? US Code Title 8, CH 12, Sub-chapter II, Part VIII, Section 1324, Sub Section a states: It is unlawful for a person or other entity— (A) to hire, or to recruit or refer for a fee, for employment in the United States an alien knowing the alien is an unauthorized alien (as defined in subsection (h)(3) of this section) with respect to such employment, or

(B)
(i) to hire for employment in the United States an individual without complying with the requirements of subsection (b) of this section or
(ii) if the person or entity is an agricultural association, agricultural employer, or farm labor contractor (as defined in section 1802 of title 29), to hire, or to recruit or refer for a fee, for employment in the United States an individual without complying with the requirements of subsection (b) of this section.


really? make it illegal, that's your answer? um, correct me if i'm wrong, but isn't it also illegal to steal, murder, and destroy? and if that is the case, then why do we have prisons full of people convicted of doing just that? why don't we just make crime illegal if it works so well? oh wait, we did. i was simply shocked that anyone with two braincells to keep each other warm, could say such stupid things. they thought they won at first because i was so utterly shocked, that i literaly could not speak. wow. it feels like more should be said, but i fear i would merely be rambling and reiterating what was previously stated.

rant over

Well here's my personal take. As most of the active forum members may or may not know. I am indeed an Anarchist (don't ask me to specify) but more to the point I'm one of those...anti-border anti-statists. I believe in unifying the human race (no time soon or in our life times...but one day) and borders signify the exact opposite of unification. Now in our modern times the main purpose of borders in any society is mainly for the states, governments, regimes etc. Bordered societies (whether isolated or not) are ripe for indoctrination of generations from the ruling power. I could go on but I think you see where I'm going with this...

[reaper239]

Well here's my personal take. As most of the active forum members may or may not know. I am indeed an Anarchist (don't ask me to specify) but more to the point I'm one of those...anti-border anti-statists. I believe in unifying the human race (no time soon or in our life times...but one day) and borders signify the exact opposite of unification. Now in our modern times the main purpose of borders in any society is mainly for the states, governments, regimes etc. Bordered societies (whether isolated or not) are ripe for indoctrination of generations from the ruling power. I could go on but I think you see where I'm going with this...

i see where you're coming from, and on a certain level i agree: it would be wonderful if we could all be together as one nation, if we could have the respect for each other to let each other live out our lives as we each as individuals see fit, it would be, in a word, utopian. however, while that would be idyllic, it is, sadly, unattainable realistically. the reason is simple: there will always be hitlers in the world, the will always be mao tse tung's and che guevara's in the world, and there will always be criminals. being that this is the case, the founding fathers established a form of government that protected individual liberties from those mao's and che's and also from the criminals. yes we have strayed greatly from the original intent, but i would argue that maintaining our nations sovereignty is the only way to ensure that our own personal liberties are protected from the outside and securing our national borders is key in that endeavor. of course protecting our individual liberties from the inside is our job, but that's a different topic all together.

by the way, i didn't mean for this to become such a huge thing, but this is fantastic. it's been a long time since i've been able to really hash out arguments in a debate, and i forgot how much i missed it. thanks to everyone who is participating.

[HorrorHiro]

i see where you're coming from, and on a certain level i agree: it would be wonderful if we could all be together as one nation, if we could have the respect for each other to let each other live out our lives as we each as individuals see fit, it would be, in a word, utopian. however, while that would be idyllic, it is, sadly, unattainable realistically. the reason is simple: there will always be hitlers in the world, the will always be mao tse tung's and che guevara's in the world, and there will always be criminals. being that this is the case, the founding fathers established a form of government that protected individual liberties from those mao's and che's and also from the criminals. yes we have strayed greatly from the original intent, but i would argue that maintaining our nations sovereignty is the only way to ensure that our own personal liberties are protected from the outside and securing our national borders is key in that endeavor. of course protecting our individual liberties from the inside is our job, but that's a different topic all together.

by the way, i didn't mean for this to become such a huge thing, but this is fantastic. it's been a long time since i've been able to really hash out arguments in a debate, and i forgot how much i missed it. thanks to everyone who is participating.

Ahh the very 1st point you make is what I and most Anti-statists, Anarchist, Disidents, illegalists or whatever you want to call us argue with the most. We aren't trying to create an unattainable utopia-esc global society. But before I get into that, the very 1st point you tried to make is the most used and obvious from people on your side of the debate. But what we're saying is if people would raise their children instead of letting the state, authoritarian government, fascist regimes etc raise their children no one would listen to these Hitlers.

I have to cut this reply short but I'll probably come back and finish it.

[reaper239]

i agree, people do need to take responsibility for raising their children, but once upon a time in america, people did. once upon a time, the government had very little to do with the personal lives...

[HorrorHiro]

&quot;For something like Anarchy to exist everyone must want it&quot; <br />
<br />
&quot;For an Anarchistic society to exist those within said society must be fully prepared to go to war with the rest of the involutarily...

[res1cue]

I agree, it would be another deadbeat state drawing from the taxpayers pocket. Legal immigration was good enough for my parents, it will be good enough for them.

In fact, the reason it is so hard to immigrate legally now is because the flood of illegals