Humanity. San Francisco has none.

[Osiris]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/43233984/ns/us_news-life/

This is what is wrong with the world. This is what happens when you follow regulations blindly, without thinking for yourself. Without being human.

[Creem_Filling]

That's just terrible! People would rather defend their jobs, than save a man's life. It doesn't surprise me in today's world, but is still shocking.

[Osiris]

That's just terrible! People would rather defend their jobs, than save a man's life. It doesn't surprise me in today's world, but is still shocking.

This is what happens when regulations are never questioned or deviated from.

[Boomstick]

54 degree water is pretty cold water,especially without a wetsuit. That would be very dangerous for someone to get into water @ that temp. It would be even more dangerous to try and rescue a suicidal grown man in 54 degree water without a wetsuit. Im afraid if the responders would of jumped into the water in an attempt to rescue the suicidal man there would of been more fatalities. Its an unfortunate situation due to the lack of funds for water-based rescue. Hopefully San Fran can learn from this and put money into areas where they're truly needed.

[Osiris]

It took how long for the victim to drown again? I can't quite... remember...

[Boomstick]

I believe it was an hour. However, the water was still at a constant 54 degrees throughout the hour. Hypothermia probably started kicking in around the 20-30 minute mark. That gave the man at least 20 minutes to turn around and walk back to shore. This being said, For a rescue officer to swim out to the man and then "convince" the man to come back to the shore or drag the man back to the shore before hyperthermia sets in, is highly unlikely. Any type of movement dramatically increases heat loss within the body in cold water. Now you have two people needing rescuing. The key element in this story is the temp of the water. If the water was in the 70s then the rescue team could of just swam out and grabbed him. I know the knee-jerk reaction is to blame the First Responders but if you objectively look at the situation and consider all the cirmcustances, you should see they made the right call.

[Osiris]

Wow. No, I really don't see that they made the right call. They pussied out, sorry. I don't see it your way.

[Boomstick]

Its not about "pussying out". They didn't have the necessary equipment to make a successful rescue. They didn't want to stupidly risk their own lives. These men have families and some could have children. Don't mistake bravery for stupidity. There were only two things that could of saved that man. A Coast Guard helicopter with a trained water rescue crew, and himself. I agree with you that the city should have had the proper training and equipment in place but to say that the First Responders "pussyied out" is just ignorant to the circumstances.

[Chelsea C.]

When someone attempts suicide, they are no longer in a sane frame of mind. I agree with Boomstick 100%. Even if a rescuer braved the cold temperatures, there is no guarantee that the suicidal man would have been rescued willingly or even swiftly. Also, there was no way that the rescuer could know if the man was armed with a knife or something equally dangerous. As they said, drugs could have been involved, which would have made the person even more unpredictable.

There are too many variables in such a situation to act on it safely. It’s an unfortunate turn of events, but let us not forget that this man chose to commit suicide. No one else is to blame for his actions. Most importantly, no one should die in the process of saving him.

[Osiris]

Ignorance to the situation is not commandeering a speed boat, raft, rubber fucking dingy or ANYTHING that could be used to do your job and not stand on the beach watching like assholes. Sorry man, but defending apathy under the pretense of 'oh the water was too cold, we couldn't go in' is complete bullshit. It took an hour for him to die. An hour. Not 15 minutes. Not 40 minutes. An hour. Standing idle and doing nothing is pussying out.

[Chelsea C.]

And what would happen if that dingy flipped and 1, 2, 3, or 4+ men were now stranded with the original suicidal man? What should the bystanders commandeer then? I'm sorry, but I disagree with your logic. This man did this to himself; he isn't someone who got swept away by an undertow. This is a man who purposely put his life in harms way and demanded others do the same. He died, and that's terrible. However, no one else lost their life in the process, which would have been even more horrendous.

[ZombieMama]

Ignorance to the situation is not commandeering a speed boat, raft, rubber fucking dingy or ANYTHING that could be used to do your job and not stand on the beach watching like assholes. Sorry man, but defending apathy under the pretense of 'oh the water was too cold, we couldn't go in' is complete bullshit. It took an hour for him to die. An hour. Not 15 minutes. Not 40 minutes. An hour. Standing idle and doing nothing is pussying out.
It didnt take him an hour to die. It took an hour before someone went in and got him. Its true that there are several factors that you are not taking into consideration too.
Lik Broomstick and CC said, a suicidal man has gone past the line of sanity and moved onto a very unpredictible field. This man did this on purpose, now that doesnt mean he did not need rescuing, but it means any atempt at rescuing him should be carefully planned. Which wasn't feasable because of those damn cuts.
Look any other suicidal suicidal situations. You cant run at someone and take their gun away when they are pointing it at themseleves, nor can you just casually pull someone off the edge of a balcony. As unfortunate as this situation is, I think a lot of people are seriously missing the big pictue here.
This is seemingly the first incident to occur on those shores since that budget cut was made, and they where lucky it was this and not a serious accident like, say a child falling off a boat. It could have ben much wors.
It's sad that it takes these kind of events to make politicians think things with their minds instead of their wallets, but it could have ben WAY worse.

[Boomstick]

Ignorance to the situation is not commandeering a speed boat, raft, rubber fucking dingy or ANYTHING that could be used to do your job and not stand on the beach watching like assholes. Sorry man, but defending apathy under the pretense of 'oh the water was too cold, we couldn't go in' is complete bullshit. It took an hour for him to die. An hour. Not 15 minutes. Not 40 minutes. An hour. Standing idle and doing nothing is pussying out.

you assume they're were motorized water floatation vehicles around. Also, in the article they tried getting a coast guard boat to him but because where the man was, it was too shallow for the boat to get to him. I don't know the size of the CG boat used in this attempted rescue but I know where I live they use a standard 25ft patrol boat for coastal rescuing. If a 25ft boat can't get to you, not many boats can.

You are right the article stated that it took an hour for the man to die. However given his age, we can estimate that hypothermia symptoms probably started sooner than 20 minutes. It was probably more Likely 15-20 minute mark. But using your logic, lets say that the man didn't suffer from any effects of hypothermia, he had an hour to turn around and get back to shore.

There is definitely such thing as too cold of water. If there wasn't then there wouldnt be a thing called hypothermia and we could all go swimming in the Arctic Circle while sipping on margaritas. Despite the popular belief, First Responders aren't invincible. They are bound to same laws of science as the rest of us mere mortals. Again don't mistake Bravery for stupidity.

[Re1ndeer]

What about the 75 people that just stood there, too. They weren't being stopped by any policies. Were they chickening out by not doing anything also?

[ZombieMama]

What about the 75 people that just stood there, too. They weren't being stopped by any policies. Were they chickening out by not doing anything also?

okay... regular people have an even worse chance of rescuing a suicide attempt than a trained Rescue Personel. It would have been extremely irresponsible for the First Response team to even allow anyone to go in. If no one went in is because they couldnt. Remember these poeple didnt stand around to point and laugh

[Chelsea C.]

okay... regular people have an even worse chance of rescuing a suicide attempt than a trained Rescue Personel. It would have been extremely irresponsible for the First Response team to even allow anyone to go in. If no one went in is because they couldnt. Remember these poeple didnt stand around to point and laugh

I think he was agreeing with us by saying 75 people didn't help because the situation didn't allow it. He was saying that being "chicken" wasn't the problem. The environment and unpredictability of the situation was to blame; not peoples' compassion. :)

[Osiris]

Well let's not compare apples and oranges. We're not talking about guns and balconies. I'm simply disagreeing with the people whose job it is to save lives, standing around watching based on 'following orders'.

Witness account:

Jenne Olgeirson, from Alameda, said: 'The police arrived while the man was still standing in the water and watched as he drowned.

'He then "bobbed" in the water for at least 30 minutes while they watched with binoculars. They did nothing. There was no boat and the helicopter did not arrive until after he had been pulled from the water.

'He was only 100 yards off the shoreline and the water was not choppy.'

Apathy and policy prevented rescue. Say what you will, I disagree with you.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1393012/Suicidal-man-left-die-San-Francisco-Bay-rescuers-didnt-cold-water-gear.html#ixzz1OA5Gm3mh
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[Re1ndeer]

I was trying to point out that it wasn't just the first responders not doing anything. I just don't like it that they are the ones getting all the blame. I am a trained lifeguard and I would not have gone in.

Also, we need to remember that he continued to walk out as the hour went on. All he had to do was walk the opposite direction and he wouldn't have died.

[Chelsea C.]

Well let's not compare apples and oranges. We're not talking about guns and balconies. I'm simply disagreeing with the people whose job it is to save lives, standing around watching based on 'following orders'.

Witness account:

Jenne Olgeirson, from Alameda, said: 'The police arrived while the man was still standing in the water and watched as he drowned.

'He then "bobbed" in the water for at least 30 minutes while they watched with binoculars. They did nothing. There was no boat and the helicopter did not arrive until after he had been pulled from the water.

'He was only 100 yards off the shoreline and the water was not choppy.'

Apathy and policy prevented rescue. Say what you will, I disagree with you.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1393012/Suicidal-man-left-die-San-Francisco-Bay-rescuers-didnt-cold-water-gear.html#ixzz1OA5Gm3mh
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Unless you were there, you can't say they didn't exhaust all resources. From what's been presented to me, I feel they made the right decisions.

[Osiris]

you assume they're were motorized water floatation vehicles around. Also, in the article they tried getting a coast guard boat to him but because where the man was, it was too shallow for the boat to get to him. I don't know the size of the CG boat used in this attempted rescue but I know where I live they use a standard 25ft patrol boat for coastal rescuing. If a 25ft boat can't get to you, not many boats can.

You are right the article stated that it took an hour for the man to die. However given his age, we can estimate that hypothermia symptoms probably started sooner than 20 minutes. It was probably more Likely 15-20 minute mark. But using your logic, lets say that the man didn't suffer from any effects of hypothermia, he had an hour to turn around and get back to shore.

There is definitely such thing as too cold of water. If there wasn't then there wouldnt be a thing called hypothermia and we could all go swimming in the Arctic Circle while sipping on margaritas. Despite the popular belief, First Responders aren't invincible. They are bound to same laws of science as the rest of us mere mortals. Again don't mistake Bravery for stupidity.

Really? Hypothermia? I had no idea that was even possible! Thanks for informing me!

Also, thanks for your assumptions about needing a motorized water flotation vehicle to go onto the water, as well as my intent with the original comment. Show's you were all there when reading it.

Again, don't mistake Apathy for intelligence.

[Chelsea C.]

It's one thing to have a debate; it's quite another when the debate turns into attacks. I think we all need to take a few steps back.

[Osiris]

Unless you were there, you can't say they didn't exhaust all resources. From what's been presented to me, I feel they made the right decisions.

And from what was presented to me, I feel they made the wrong decision.

[Osiris]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9CrSF4qpIeM&feature=player_embedded#at=27

I'm not the only one.

[Chelsea C.]

And from what was presented to me, I feel they made the wrong decision.

And you have the right to feel that way.

[Ra1th]

And from what was presented to me, I feel they made the wrong decision.

That's great, but her statement still stands. When the debate turns into attacks, it's time to take a step back.

[mascaria]

Two things:

1. Both MSNBC and the Dailymail are infamously bad at impartial reporting and both of those articles are written with some extreme biases.
2. The man could have turned and walked back to shore but he didn't because he was committing suicide. Why should other people put their own lives at risk to save some one who wants to be dead?

The residents of the city of San Fransisco have an amazing amount of compassion for each other. I think it's overly harsh to say an entire city is apathetic because one man was able to commit suicide.

[Osiris]

Laughable. May as well lock the thread, it will only continue.

[Osiris]

Two things:

1. Both MSNBC and the Dailymail are infamously bad at impartial reporting and both of those articles are written with some extreme biases.
2. The man could have turned and walked back to shore but he didn't because he was committing suicide. Why should other people put their own lives at risk to save some one who wants to be dead?

The residents of the city of San Fransisco have an amazing amount of compassion for each other. I think it's overly harsh to say an entire city is apathetic because one man was able to commit suicide.

Mk.

[Jeebogs]

I think it is most definitely a sad and unfortunate situation. Had the rescue helicopter been available, maybe it would have ended differently. But, out of interest, if the policy had not been in place and the first response team made a calculated risk assessment not to go in and wait for the rescue helicopter, would your view on the matter be the same?

[Osiris]

I know several public service individuals. Medics, firefighters, and policemen. I know that no captain wants to cut services, but many times the local voters are the ones to vote down budget increases (levies). This means they have to cut something. It might be manpower, it might be from a costly diving suit that was viewed to have little use because they can normally call the coast guard.

Please excuse any typos. Sent from my phone

However, no price is too great for guns, bombs, fighter planes and any other tool of war. Save lives? Fuck you, here's 40 bucks, make it stretch. It's complete bullshit.

[mascaria]

Welcome to America. We're only here to feed the war machine.

[j0be]

I know several public service individuals. Medics, firefighters, and policemen. I know that no captain wants to cut services, but many times the local voters are the ones to vote down budget increases (levies). This means they have to cut something. It might be manpower, it might be from a costly diving suit that was viewed to have little use because they can normally call the coast guard.

Please excuse any typos. Sent from my phone

[Osiris]

I think it is most definitely a sad and unfortunate situation. Had the rescue helicopter been available, maybe it would have ended differently. But, out of interest, if the policy had not been in place and the first response team made a calculated risk assessment not to go in and wait for the rescue helicopter, would your view on the matter be the same?

Honestly? Yes. I place value on human lives. You'll risk your life for money. You'll risk the lives of your children for the comforts afforded by oil. You'll stand and watch a man die, and do nothing but say 'hands are tied, policy is policy.'

[Wicked Sid]

Honestly? Yes. I place value on human lives. You'll risk your life for money. You'll risk the lives of your children for the comforts afforded by oil. You'll stand and watch a man die, and do nothing but say 'hands are tied, policy is policy.'

Would you risk your own life to save a lost cause? You keep bringing up this policy, well there is also the Human survival instinct and common sense. In other words, it is not worth it to risk two+ lives instead of losing one.

[Osiris]

Would you risk your own life to save a lost cause? You keep bringing up this policy, well there is also the Human survival instinct and common sense. In other words, it is not worth it to risk two+ lives instead of losing one.

You risk your life every day for less. Consider that a moment.

[Jeebogs]

You'll risk your life for money. You'll risk the lives of your children for the comforts afforded by oil. You'll stand and watch a man die, and do nothing but say 'hands are tied, policy is policy.'


I will assume you mean generally and not me personally.

[Wicked Sid]

You risk your life every day for less. Consider that a moment.

That comes with living, it is a justifiable risk that I take to ensure my own life will thrive in this world. And you still didn't answer my question.

[Osiris]

I will assume you mean generally and not me personally.

As a whole.

[ObamaCat]

Would you risk your own life to save a lost cause? You keep bringing up this policy, well there is also the Human survival instinct and common sense. In other words, it is not worth it to risk two+ lives instead of losing one.

This is very true. Even in basic things like CPR you're taught not to go into potentially dangerous situations, even if you know someone is alive and could be saved. Its just not worth the risk of two lives.

[Osiris]

That comes with living, it is a justifiable risk that I take to ensure my own life will thrive in this world. And you still didn't answer my question.

Yes. Not a difficult decision.

[Boomstick]

Well let's not compare apples and oranges. We're not talking about guns and balconies. I'm simply disagreeing with the people whose job it is to save lives, standing around watching based on 'following orders'.

Witness account:

Jenne Olgeirson, from Alameda, said: 'The police arrived while the man was still standing in the water and watched as he drowned.

'He then "bobbed" in the water for at least 30 minutes while they watched with binoculars. They did nothing. There was no boat and the helicopter did not arrive until after he had been pulled from the water.

'He was only 100 yards off the shoreline and the water was not choppy.'

Apathy and policy prevented rescue. Say what you will, I disagree with you.



Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1393012/Suicidal-man-left-die-San-Francisco-Bay-rescuers-didnt-cold-water-gear.html#ixzz1OA5Gm3mh
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100 yards is a pretty good ways. We've had plenty of people who have drowned that weren't suicidal 15 yards off of our beach. Thats 100 yards going one way. So a total of 200 yards in 54-degree water and the last 100 yards you're dragging a grown adult male. That distance is over twice the length of an olympic swimming pool. One way. That would be a difficult swim in 80 degree water.

But I think we can Agree that we respectfully disagree.

PS. You're using the saying Don't mistake Apathy for Intelligence incorrectly, what you mean to say is Don't mistake Intelligence for Apathy.

[nikvoodoo]

Ok, there are some interesting things being tossed around in here. And this is obviously a hot topic dealing with a real life tragic event. It is obvious we aren't all in agreement. It's been requested this thread be locked and it is now locked. No more posts allowed.