How come the water is not infected?

[Re1ndeer]

If the blood is infectious, why hasn't the water became infectious too?

There must have been a ton of zombies in the water including the ones that we saw in "over the air-waves". I would figure that a lot of the blood has made it to the oceans.

[Kc]

Ahh... the "Cabin Fever" theory. ;)

[Ra1th]

i'd say dilution, a few zombies spreading their germs and blood in 326 million trillion gallons of water (real stat btw) prly wont do much

[Re1ndeer]

I forgot about that movie. But now that you mention it. Yes, the "Cabin Fever" theory.

[Ra1th]

what's the cabin fever theory?

[Re1ndeer]

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0303816/

[Ra1th]

oh, ok, but what's the theory?

[itsallgoodie]

hmm good question but they havent used any water since they filled all the tubs ect. have they even been anywhere that they could be infected from aside from the ocean--following ra1th's theory.

[Re1ndeer]

@Ra1th,

The virus in that movie is spread to the main characters by an infected person falling in the Lake that the characters take water from.

@itsallgoodie

I don't think we have. The water in the Water pumping station could be infected, but it isn't pumping water anymore.

Do we know where the tower is get their water from? or are they still using the tubs?(I thought that we used up all of that water to stop the fires?)

[Ra1th]

they got a truck of bottled water while MPK was at the colony

[ObamaCat]

I don't think the zombies have gotten into the pumping water supply. Other than that haven't they (the Tower folks) been relying on tub water and bottled water? I don't think they've taken any water from the ocean or other water source that could potentially be infected. Also the zombies would have to be bleeding in the water in order to infect it and as Ra1th said there is a ton of water to dilute the blood.

[yarri]

If the blood is infectious, why hasn't the water became infectious too?

There must have been a ton of zombies in the water including the ones that we saw in "over the air-waves". I would figure that a lot of the blood has made it to the oceans.


Please correct me if I am wrong but doesn't sea water have a built in filtration system in such as bacteria and algae that break down "rotting" things? Its been shown that animals don't become infected so it would stand to figure that the fish wouldn't either. Then there is also the dilution factor.

[Ra1th]

also i mean, as long as you boil the water before drinking it, or using it, then u should be fine right? it should kill off the zombie virus? there's prly only a small bit of it in the water to begin with

[yarri]

also i mean, as long as you boil the water before drinking it, or using it, then u should be fine right? it should kill off the zombie virus? there's prly only a small bit of it in the water to begin with

thats a pretty standard way to clean water I found this web site that was interesting.

http://www.climbing-high.com/how-to-purify-water.html

[itsallgoodie]

ya i think a good point is that they are also using rain water right? or am i wrong about that? i could be i just feel like i heard or read that somewhere.

[Ra1th]

they did, but remember, they're in LA, it rains like 5 days a year

[yarri]

ya i think a good point is that they are also using rain water right? or am i wrong about that? i could be i just feel like i heard or read that somewhere.

They are but before MPK went walk about looking for the the doctor.. they were on water rations. I don't think it rained during that time.

[Re1ndeer]

@obamacat
There were zombies at the pumping station, one of the big ones. Michael gets stuck behind when he tries to shoot it and he breaks his arm somewhere here.

@Ra1th
Not everyone has the knowledge of boiling water to make it safe. But most people do.

[itsallgoodie]

decent point but thats partially due to pollution right? or no, if it is then it could totally rain more cuz of less pollution.

[ObamaCat]

@obamacat
There were zombies at the pumping station, one of the big ones. Michael gets stuck behind when he tries to shoot it and he breaks his arm somewhere here.


That's true but I don't think they were actually infecting the water supply.

[Re1ndeer]

With the Rain, could there be sort of acid rain effect and the rain could get infected?

[Ra1th]

acid rain doesnt really have anything to do with the zombies, i think you guys are overthinking this issue.

[Re1ndeer]

I knew I was stretching it with the acid rain.

But, back to the main idea, could the local rivers and streams be contaminated?

[Eviebae]

they did, but remember, they're in LA, it rains like 5 days a year

I used to live in California--it has a rainy season and rarely rains any other time of the year. Some years it doesn't rain at all, other years (like this year) you have apocalyptic rains. The thing I missed most was thunder, it hardly ever thundered.

[Ra1th]

I used to live in California--it has a rainy season and rarely rains any other time of the year. Some years it doesn't rain at all, other years (like this year) you have apocalyptic rains. The thing I missed most was thunder, it hardly ever thundered.


yeah this year had some crazy rain but i think last year (or maybe the year before that) it barely rained at all. it comes and goes,

[wooly]

I would guess that whatever the infectious agent is, it does not survive outside of the host organism very long but is passed only by direct contact. The survivors have been in close contact on so many occasions but only infected by direct injury.

If it were otherwise, say airborne or even long-living on exposed surfaces or fluids, then everyone would have turned by now. They live in a filthy, bloody & dead environment. Just cleaning up after an attack would have infected the cleanup crew. I seem to recall the extent of their personal protective gear being gloves and shower curtains at one point. From a biological defense point of view that is laughable, yet none were infected.

The scene at the Arena with humans hiding in a pile of mutilated corpses tends to prove this as well. There is no way that in that vile & juicy pile of creature-killed corpses that they did not come across blood or saliva from a creature - they were covered in goo. Yet no infection.

[nikvoodoo]

I knew I was stretching it with the acid rain.

But, back to the main idea, could the local rivers and streams be contaminated?

This returns us to the main crux of the issue of what has caused the outbreak. Viruses can be delivered through a water supply, but if its something else, getting into a lake or stream may not help transmit it to others.

Good thread. It's aspoloding!

[Ra1th]

I would guess that whatever the infectious agent is, it does not survive outside of the host organism very long but is passed only by direct contact. The survivors have been in close contact on so many occasions but only infected by direct injury.

If it were otherwise, say airborne or even long-living on exposed surfaces or fluids, then everyone would have turned by now. They live in a filthy, bloody & dead environment. Just cleaning up after an attack would have infected the cleanup crew. I seem to recall the extent of their personal protective gear being gloves and shower curtains at one point. From a biological defense point of view that is laughable, yet none were infected.

The scene at the Arena with humans hiding in a pile of mutilated corpses tends to prove this as well. There is no way that in that vile & juicy pile of creature-killed corpses that they did not come across blood or saliva from a creature - they were covered in goo. Yet no infection.

*clap clap clap* that was awesome! I think u just hit the nail on its head

[Re1ndeer]

The scene at the Arena with humans hiding in a pile of mutilated corpses tends to prove this as well. There is no way that in that vile & juicy pile of creature-killed corpses that they did not come across blood or saliva from a creature - they were covered in goo. Yet no infection.

That scene confused me. I assumed that it was a pile of their dead. I didn't understand why they didn't get infected.

[Ra1th]

is it a pile of HUMAN dead, not zombies is it? humans they killed but werent able to eat at the time or are they the dead zombie corpses that got dragged back and piled up?

so either Kc has an explanation for this or... WHOA whats that whooshing sound i hear? gasp! it's a PLOT HOLE!

[nikvoodoo]

I would guess that whatever the infectious agent is, it does not survive outside of the host organism very long but is passed only by direct contact. The survivors have been in close contact on so many occasions but only infected by direct injury.

There is no evidence (yet) that says how long the pathogen (to allow for more possibilities than the word virus grants us). Tommy got the Jumpers guts sprayed all over him and about five minutes later it gets into his wounds and he turns. For all we know, the pathogen can live outside a host body for years until evidence is produced to the contrary.

[Ra1th]

There is no evidence (yet) that says how long the pathogen (to allow for more possibilities than the word virus grants us). Tommy got the Jumpers guts sprayed all over him and about five minutes later it gets into his wounds and he turns. For all we know, the pathogen can live outside a host body for years until evidence is produced to the contrary.


The scene at the Arena with humans hiding in a pile of mutilated corpses tends to prove this as well. There is no way that in that vile & juicy pile of creature-killed corpses that they did not come across blood or saliva from a creature - they were covered in goo. Yet no infection.

i think ur forgetting about this. angel and riley came into contact with zombie blood/saliva in the corpse hill, and they didnt turn, so the pathogen will die out in a few days without its host, or so the logic goes, OR ITS A PLOT HOLE!

[nikvoodoo]

i think ur forgetting about this. angel and riley came into contact with zombie blood/saliva in the corpse hill, and they didnt turn, so the pathogen will die out in a few days without its host, or so the logic goes, OR ITS A PLOT HOLE!

Not forgetting that at all. It could be that pile of flesh was that of human remains. The zombies rip the flesh off the pile. They don't stick their faces in the food pile and lick it so they can claim an arm or a leg they want to eat later on ;)

If that pile was that of human remains and not that of zombies, it would be perfectly reasonable to think that those dead bodies weren't infected. Have we seen anyone turn from simply a scratch in this series yet? I know in zombie lore, yes, scratches are as bad as bites. But if the pathogen is transmitted by blood/saliva only, scratches would be a way in for the pathogen, but not directly result in an infection.

[Ra1th]

Not forgetting that at all. It could be that pile of flesh was that of human remains. The zombies rip the flesh off the pile. They don't stick their faces in the food pile and lick it so they can claim an arm or a leg they want to eat later on ;)

If that pile was that of human remains and not that of zombies, it would be perfectly reasonable to think that those dead bodies weren't infected. Have we seen anyone turn from simply a scratch in this series yet? I know in zombie lore, yes, scratches are as bad as bites. But if the pathogen is transmitted by blood/saliva only, scratches would be a way in for the pathogen, but not directly result in an infection.

But how did those humans die? zombies kill by using teeth and nails, there HAS to be a transfer of blood, and saliva during the killing, but those people died before they could turn point being there must have been trace amounts of the virus on the bodies, but angel and riley escaped unturned,

and the other thing is zombies cant just "rip" flesh out of the pile, they lack claws, so they must have used their teeth right? or they took the whole body with them

[wooly]

Not canon per the story revealed so far, but thinking logically - the aftermath of their indoor battles had to have been gory messes, blood and goo sprayed everywhere. Yet the cleanup crew is never infected. What are the odds that not one of them touched wet blood during cleanup? Pretty slim. I've worked in and then cleaned up many a nasty trauma room at work in the ER. No matter how careful, eventually you get some on you. And that is wearing a full splash gown, mask, hood, boots and gloves. What do our survivors have? Street clothes, gloves and mops? One more indication of a short interval for exposure risk.

In one of the flashback scenes, Chapter 4?, a man comes in direct contact with blood on his skin and doesn't change. I don't say much but what's already there....

[timberwoof]

I'm thinking the "virus", "pathogen", or whatever this damn thing is, is similar to say HIV. Don't survive for to long out of the body, but can for a certain amount of time. Contact with bodily fluids and transmission into the body by some kind of means is only way of infection. I don't believe HIV can survive in plain water for very long either.

[cycogod]

whatever causes dead humans to return to life is some pretty strong stuff. so yeah I forgot my point...????

[MrScott101]

two things, If I remember correctly that pile inside was human non turned pile, the pile outside was dead zombies. They could have been ripped apart easy without zombie blood or saliva or very minimal especially if the humans were dead prior to the pile.

@cycogod, Also there has not been anything to say that a dead human came back as a zombie only that someone turned while still alive.

[Zombiehead]

I'm thinking the "virus", "pathogen", or whatever this damn thing is, is similar to say HIV. Don't survive for to long out of the body, but can for a certain amount of time. Contact with bodily fluids and transmission into the body by some kind of means is only way of infection. I don't believe HIV can survive in plain water for very long either.
Ah ha! I think you and Wooly are referring to Anaerobic pathogens *slaps forehead* Why didn't I think of that. It basically describes microorganisms that can live without oxygen or may even die if oxygen is present. Some diseases in the world have to have direct fluid transfer in order to survive and cannot live outside a host.

[nikvoodoo]

and the other thing is zombies cant just "rip" flesh out of the pile, they lack claws, so they must have used their teeth right? or they took the whole body with them
I've ripped a chicken breast off a whole uncooked chicken without claws... Same principle. Human fingers can tear flesh off bone if you use enough force and find the correct spot.


I think that just gives testimony to how rapid the infection is, and goes along with my theory. Fresh fluid from an infected creature (alive/undead at the time, whatever - still moving lol) transmitted to a new host via broken skin...
Not canon per the story revealed so far, but thinking logically - the aftermath of their indoor battles had to have been gory messes, blood and goo sprayed everywhere. Yet the cleanup crew is never infected. What are the odds that not one of them touched wet blood during cleanup? Pretty slim. I
...Yet our heroes who swam in the goo came out OK despite getting fluids in direct contact with eyes and mouth (Riley did both, spitting and wiping her face). Hence, the agent becomes inactive or dormant over time.

You brought up the answer in your own response. Broken Skin. Tommy turned because he had a cut from a pipe bomb explosion. There was no indicated injuries or broken skin from Riley and Angel when they immersed themselves in the pile. Same can probably be said for clean up crews. So long as they don't have an open wound, you can touch the blood. You just probably shouldn't.

Am I saying there's no chance the virus/pathogen dies when outside the body? Not at all. That could very well be the case. And that could explain (getting back to the point of this thread) why the water doesn't get infected. All I'm saying is there is no real evidence saying the pathogen dies when it leaves the body yet. We haven't seen it in action enough to rule out the possibility it's like bacteria that grows exponentially in the right conditions.

[Ra1th]

I've ripped a chicken breast off a whole uncooked chicken without claws... Same principle. Human fingers can tear flesh off bone if you use enough force and find the correct spot.



You brought up the answer in your own response. Broken Skin. Tommy turned because he had a cut from a pipe bomb explosion. There was no indicated injuries or broken skin from Riley and Angel when they immersed themselves in the pile. Same can probably be said for clean up crews. So long as they don't have an open wound, you can touch the blood. You just probably shouldn't.

Am I saying there's no chance the virus/pathogen dies when outside the body? Not at all. That could very well be the case. And that could explain (getting back to the point of this thread) why the water doesn't get infected. All I'm saying is there is no real evidence saying the pathogen dies when it leaves the body yet. We haven't seen it in action enough to rule out the possibility it's like bacteria that grows exponentially in the right conditions.

I agree with ur conclusion but

1. A chicken is a lot smaller and much more fragile than a human. I don't think I'd be able to tear an arm off of a human body with fingers alone. Lots more muscle and touched skin involved. Then there's the bone which would prove REALLY tough to break through

2. Orifices eyes nose mouth ears etc. These would work jst as well as any open cut. And we know angel n Riley were drenched in goo. It would be improbable that it didn't get in their eyes. They were vomiting so open mouth in a pile of corpses. I wouldn't be so quick to rule out wooly's theory

[Re1ndeer]

Well, the zombies are stronger than Humans, so this may help them rip people apart.

[Ra1th]

Well, the zombies are stronger than Humans, so this may help them rip people apart.

Are they? I was under the impressionthat they were similar to humans who never got tired or felt pain; so like they can sprint at top speed for long periods of time and strain muscles without regard to injuries or pain. But it doesn't seem like normals are superhuman(I think)

[Re1ndeer]

May be not superhuman, but they destroyed the car Saul was in. That would take some strength.

[nikvoodoo]

I agree with ur conclusion but

1. A chicken is a lot smaller and much more fragile than a human. I don't think I'd be able to tear an arm off of a human body with fingers alone. Lots more muscle and touched skin involved. Then there's the bone which would prove REALLY tough to break through

2. Orifices eyes nose mouth ears etc. These would work jst as well as any open cut. And we know angel n Riley were drenched in goo. It would be improbable that it didn't get in their eyes. They were vomiting so open mouth in a pile of corpses. I wouldn't be so quick to rule out wooly's theory

I never said they were ripping through bones or ripping limbs out of the sockets. They are tearing flesh off the bone. That is considerably easier to accomplish because the human body provides gaps in the skeletal structure for fingers to be inserted. And I'm not ruling out wooly's theory, I'm merely presenting the counter argument to it....though I doubt you're surprised by this. Certainly isn't the first time I've played the devils advocate on here ;)

[Kc]

The scene at the Arena with humans hiding in a pile of mutilated corpses tends to prove this as well. There is no way that in that vile & juicy pile of creature-killed corpses that they did not come across blood or saliva from a creature - they were covered in goo. Yet no infection.
Who said the corpses had any "infection"... just playing devil's advocate...

[nikvoodoo]

Who said the corpses had any "infection"... just playing devil's advocate...

I was trying to do that too, but those two meanies weren't listening to me. Maybe they'll listen to you :p

[Pteranodon]

One word: SALT.

How do you stop a 'REAL' voodoo-zombie? You fill its mouth with salt then sew it shut. Salt water will stop them too....

So the ocean water stops the infection dead in its tracks....

[Ra1th]

Who said the corpses had any "infection"... just playing devil's advocate...

This might be a lost cause trying to fight the creator on this but like wooly said, these zombies kill by tearing humans apart limb from limb using teeth fingers anything, and the victim isn't exactly gonna sit there and take it are they? They'll fight back. The result would be one giant bloody mess but the victim is killed before he gets a chance to turn (2-3 minutes?) anyway there's a giant bloody mess of a corpse, we know zombies drool and salivate like mad when they have the scent of a human so there SHOULD be a transfer of fluids/blood between victim and zombie, and this SHOULD be the case for almost every body in that pile. So all together a good bit of zombie toxin should have been in and around those bodies, I'll guarantee u angel n Riley got goo in heir mouths and eyes, so the way I see it, had the virus been active outside the host body, Rigel (Riley/angel) shoulda turned.

But that could totally not be the case in which case PLOT HOLE! TAN TAN TAAAAAAAN!

[yarri]

Who said the corpses had any "infection"... just playing devil's advocate...


I was trying to do that too, but those two meanies weren't listening to me. Maybe they'll listen to you :p

*assists the devil and his Advocate*

They don't eat their dead.. so no infection for Riley and Angel who wallowed in the Arena fridge so to speak.

[yarri]

This might be a lost cause trying to fight the creator on this but like wooly said, these zombies kill by tearing humans apart limb from limb using teeth fingers anything, and the victim isn't exactly gonna sit there and take it are they? They'll fight back. The result would be one giant bloody mess but the victim is killed before he gets a chance to turn (2-3 minutes?) anyway there's a giant bloody mess of a corpse, we know zombies drool and salivate like mad when they have the scent of a human so there SHOULD be a transfer of fluids/blood between victim and zombie, and this SHOULD be the case for almost every body in that pile. So all together a good bit of zombie toxin should have been in and around those bodies, I'll guarantee u angel n Riley got goo in heir mouths and eyes, so the way I see it, had the virus been active outside the host body, Rigel (Riley/angel) shoulda turned.

But that could totally not be the case in which case PLOT HOLE! TAN TAN TAAAAAAAN!

Most virus are fragile outside the hosts body.(HIV will last on a surface outside the body 1 to 2 hours and I got that from the CDC)
Yes the concentration of a virus in saliva is present in things like HIV infection. So it stands to reason that it would be with the Zvirus But the chance of infection is low and as the mouth is an unfriendly place to any virus in general. Blood (zombie blood) would have a higher level of concentration of the Zvirus then Zombie spit. Much higher.

Just for fun facts
[quoted from Wiki] Human saliva is composed of 98% water, while the other 2% consists of other compounds such as electrolytes, mucus, antibacterial compounds, and various enzymes.[1] As part of the initial process of food digestion, the enzymes in the saliva break down some of the starch and fat in the food at the molecular level.

The pile of nummy zombie treats that Riley and Angel rolled around in was not fresh meat. It was well aged, soft and gooey. I would say more a possibility for bacteria infection then ZVirus infection.

Also.. to answer the part about victims putting up a fight prior to their visit to the food prep portion of the arena.. I don't buy it. 1. Zombies are much stronger then humans. Note here I didn't say superhuman but I would say at least chimpanzee strong as they ripped apart a Saul's car and an adult chimp can rip apart a human being
2. They also are working in pairs or some other multiple. I think they rip "food people" apart in pairs.. Like a big game of tug o war. Also, to disjoint an animal you don't have to break bones you only have to break tendons and dislocate (which isn't hard to do) joints. its something like 8 to 14 pounds of pressure on an average human to dislocate a joint)

Last part:
My question

Could the drooling in Blood, sweat, and fears been not only from the scent of humans but from the zombies being triggered to hunt?

[Pteranodon]

Are they? I was under the impressionthat they were similar to humans who never got tired or felt pain; so like they can sprint at top speed for long periods of time and strain muscles without regard to injuries or pain. But it doesn't seem like normals are superhuman(I think)

Maybe thay have 'crazy-people' strength. Or something like adrenaline; I have chronic pains but a few times when the adrenaline kicked in even the constant pains vanished, till it wore off. If the infected are numb they could do all sorts of things.

Ever try to catch an animal? Wild or otherwise, they absolutely freak out- you wouldn't believe how fast most critters can move. And when they fight they all become Berserkers...

[Zombiehead]

In Chapter 1, Saul says "They tore that car apart like a tin can!"

[wooly]

Note to self -> Never argue when the writer of the show himself edits your posts.

OK. So. My new theory is that the "infection" is transmitted spiritually (aka psychic vampirism (https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Psychic_vampire) ala Lifeforce (https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Lifeforce_%28film%29) ) and that whether the victim is eaten or turned is a choice made by the attacker and not random biology.

There. Explains it all. If fluids are not the transmission vector than the water is safe :)

Or I could be full of it and puzzled, which is more likely lol. I'm glad this show is not predictable.

[LoadingGodmode]

When Tommy was refusing to get cleaned off I thought the Zombie's may have a weakness to water. But that theory was quickly shot down was they started swimming towards Michael and Pegs on the boat. As to why it's not infected, maybe there is something to my water theory in the sense that the virus cannot be transfered through it.

[Dyehardjr]

When Tommy was refusing to get cleaned off I thought the Zombie's may have a weakness to water. But that theory was quickly shot down was they started swimming towards Michael and Pegs on the boat. As to why it's not infected, maybe there is something to my water theory in the sense that the virus cannot be transfered through it.

Checking on the wonderful world wide web, I came across a website called http://www.waterencyclopedia.com/Mi-Oc/Microbes-in-the-Ocean.html. Here, I found this quote:
"Viruses are entities that require bacteria or other cells in order to make copies of their genetic material and to construct new casings that house the genetic material. Scientific studies have shown that 10 to 100 million viruses can be present in a teaspoonful of sea water." This may fight towards the fact that many viruses can in fact survive in oceananic waters.

But there are viruses and bacteria that also die in salt water... ever gargle salt water? Sure, it's disgusting, but it helps with the common cold. So until The Tower does a few more experiments, like sticking a zombie in a tank of salt water, and then having someone drink that water, we won't really know what will happen...

[mythicgr66]

"Viruses are entities that require bacteria or other cells in order to make copies of their genetic material and to construct new casings that house the genetic material. Scientific studies have shown that 10 to 100 million viruses can be present in a teaspoonful of sea water." This may fight towards the fact that many viruses can in fact survive in oceananic waters.

This is true, so from what we have seen the Virus/Parasite can only affect the human physiology or we would of seen animal as zombies as well. we have seen the V/P can cause mutation depending on the physiology of the human host e.g. greater speed, size plus some intelligence and over time we have herd of new some new mutations e.g. the ones skittles saw on the roof of the army base. The only way the V/P could efficently survive in water, is if it were to mutate quite drasticly as with most blood/bodily transmitted diseases (BTD) almost never survive outside the body for very long, it will take several years to mutate enougth to survive out side the human body and will most likely be tranferable to any enity that needs water to survie

The paragrah is a bit jumbled but basicly in order for the Virus/Parasite (V/P) to survive out side the body, let alone in salt water will take several years of mutation and will most likely have mutated the ability to infect animals as well.

[Dyehardjr]

The paragrah is a bit jumbled but basicly in order for the Virus/Parasite (V/P) to survive out side the body, let alone in salt water will take several years of mutation and will most likely have mutated the ability to infect animals as well.

That's interesting... we know that animals aren't effected from the Virus/Parasite/whatever, but if the Tower was forced to begin hunting animals and having to eat them, which is likely, because Riley has said that they have 2 years before ALL the food goes bad, could the virus be transfered through the animal to humans, even though it doesn't effect the animal?