Will Angel Ever Take Control of the Tower?

[Ra1th]

This is Nikvoodoo talking. Sorry this is so screwy. So here's the recap of what we were talking over in Chapter 20-1 discussion. These messages are the ones I can't merge because they contain Chapter 20 talk. So in the quote blocks in this post are things I had to move, and then I had to put them into ra1th's post here because it won't move around in the order. So....hope that makes sense.



Come now crowbar, you can't really expect to hit Angel like that and NOT have me come after you. (took me long enough though, damn chatbox) First up, it’s not whining rather a passing comment since he’s been busting his ass lately and his recent contributions just went unnoticed. I think it’s also a shout out from kc, to us. We’ve been discussing who could be leader for a while now, and Angel’s name has come up frequently. If anything it’s fan service, that he IS a candidate, and you should also take into consideration that Michael asked if Angel wanted leadership. Angel was smart enough to decline saying the tower was rightfully Michael’s but, to me that’s recognition of Angel’s growth and possibly foreshadowing of the next change of leadership. Keep in mind we are only in season two of three to four seasons, in that time, I’d be surprised if there wasn’t another change of leadership. And when that time comes, my boy Angel will be waiting. But for right now, I’d say Angel’s leadership abilities would be equal to that of Burt. But the tower’s situation is dire, and Burt’s leadership level is no longer enough to keep the crazed tower residents at bay, which is where the fired up and recharged Michael comes into play. Consider Michael to be leveled up. Michael is the leader the tower needs right now.


Ra1th, Ra1th, Ra1th..

Remember the epi when Saul and Angel found Burt? Well, Saul school your boy in the hummer about why he basically won't lead. At the time it was because he expected respect because he's doing "everything every one else is."
You're aren't going to assume leadership by asking "Well what about me??"
You know why Burt took over? It wasn't because he's better than Angel. It's because he demanded it and took it by force of personality.
Compare the time that Burt's been there and the time Angel has been there. No way should Burt have been number 2, but he got it.


I guess you’re right about that. That ability to demand leadership, and yell out an order and expect it to be followed is what Angel still lacks. He still doesn’t have the fire. But I guess baby steps, like you said, the first time Angel wondered why he wasn’t leader, it was because he lacked experience, and leadership in the field. He’s gained that part now, but now he lacks Michael and Burt’s fire, and their wanting to do it their way. Well in good time hopefully, he’ll learn this just like he learned everything else. ONE DAY CROWBAR ONE DAY! Hahaaa as for the team up theory, I’m not going so far as a maller/tower team up, I’m pretty annoyed with the Mallers on how they treated lizzy, but I still want a crazy insane all out battle between the colony, the Mallers and the tower and I want a FAT zombie hoard in there too. I don’t care who’s fighting with who really, I just wanna see the biggest fattest battle possible.


That's the thing. Leaders don't demand leadership. They are given leadership. We saw Marcus demand leadership and it got him killed (lets just assume he is for this argument. I don't want to crack this pandora's box open in this thread). It's not that Angel doesn't have fire, Angel doesn't have the charisma to lead. Angel's intangibles fall behind Michael's in every way. People would do anything for Michael. But as for those intangible, can't quite put your finger on it reasons: nobody would seem to do the same for Angel.

Michael has charisma in spades. Burt even had it, but not as much and he burned through his pretty damn quick with the residents. But for some reason, despite Angel's charming personality and quick wit, his leadership charisma is nearly non-existent.









That's the thing. Leaders don't demand leadership. They are given leadership. We saw Marcus demand leadership and it got him killed (lets just assume he is for this argument. I don't want to crack this pandora's box open in this thread).

Normally, you’re one of the last people I want to debate, but when it comes to a subject like this one, I’ll go to the end of the world and back. So to start it off, Michael was not given leadership. Angel was in charge originally in episode 1. Michael took leadership by gaining Saul’s allegiance and basically undermining Angel’s orders, by breaking into the armory. Same thing with Burt, Burt was (arguably) not given leadership. Michael’s absence left a power vacuum. It didn’t end with the people of the power begging Burt to become leader. While Angel was fumbling around, trying to get people to listen to him, Burt ran in headfirst, barked out orders, and took charge.
It’s the same scenario with our country even. Leadership is not just given to our president. For six months, candidates duke it out in the elections fighting tooth and nail for command and leadership of this country. We, the people don’t just bestow leadership, they fight to show the voters that they are the best candidate for the job.


It's not that Angel doesn't have fire, Angel doesn't have the charisma to lead. Angel's intangibles fall behind Michael's in every way. People would do anything for Michael. But as for those intangible, can't quite put your finger on it reasons: nobody would seem to do the same for Angel.

Michael has charisma in spades. Burt even had it, but not as much and he burned through his pretty damn quick with the residents. But for some reason, despite Angel's charming personality and quick wit, his leadership charisma is nearly non-existent.


This one made me think. I literally spent about an hour just seething over this looking for a way to poke a hole in this, to somehow find a counterpoint. And I couldn’t find one. Until I started thinking about the reason people did things for Burt and Michael that they didn’t for Angel. Confidence. Angel lacks confidence in himself. Because here’s the thing, people WILL do things for Angel, and there are very specific examples of this, ALL of which are in the field. Angel’s team mates will follow his orders in the field. Here are the examples:

When Riley and Datu were about to turn back and head home in defeat after Michael’s supposed death at the pumping station, Angel showed some pretty damn good textbook style charisma, and the others fell in line and followed his lead.
The second example of this is with Kalani on the mission for MREs. He showed some damn good leadership and charisma here as well. Of course here’s where people might say, oh Kalani was rebelling and rebutting the whole time, and if Michael was in charge, this would never have happened. But I’d like to direct your eyes to the episode where Michael and co. rescued DARK (Datu, angel, riley, Kalani). Kalani was half dead and was still giving Michael shit the ENTIRE car ride back WHILE being chased by zombies. (This should just tell you a lot about Kalani’s personality.) And let me tell you, Michael wasn’t handling kalani any better than Angel was. Now back to the original point, Kalani was kicking, screaming and bitching the whole way, but Angel still maintained command. You can see this in when Kalani at multiple points want to leave the supplies and go home. Angel stays true to the mission, and DRAGS Kalani with him and FORCES Kalani into helping him complete the mission. If that isn’t charisma, then nothing is.

So basically the whole point of that tirade was to establish this, Angel shows charisma in the field. Why? Because Angel is confident in the field, he’s confident in his abilities, he’s confident in his experiences, and he knows exactly what the hell he’s doing. Because Angel displays this confidence in the field, people will follow his leadership. Angel lacks confidence to lead the tower as a whole, and confidence, is why people will do things for Michael that they won’t do for Angel.

So at the end of the day, I suppose I can’t really prove you wrong, (as much as I really want to) Every character in this series goes through development, but I’d like to argue that Angel goes through, and I’m predicting that he will continue to go through more development than the others. And one of the biggest themes surrounding Angel’s growth, is leadership. Angel was trained to be a leader, and he was not up to the task in so many ways. With this character, his development revolves around him gaining the experience and finding the confidence to finally fill that leadership role that he was originally meant to fill but failed.

Here’s something I think might be very possible, If you were to throw Burt, Angel and Michael into the field, Angel would be clashing with the others over the best course of action, because Angel is confident in the field, he knows what he’s doing, he knows what he’s up against. And with that confidence, will come the “fire” to want to take leadership, and the charisma that will have others follow his orders.

So at the end of the day, add confidence to the list of shit angel has to achieve before he’s ready for leadership

[nikvoodoo]

Normally, you’re one of the last people I want to debate, but when it comes to a subject like this one, I’ll go to the end of the world and back. So to start it off, Michael was not given leadership. Angel was in charge originally in episode 1. Michael took leadership by gaining Saul’s allegiance and basically undermining Angel’s orders, by breaking into the armory. Same thing with Burt, Burt was (arguably) not given leadership. Michael’s absence left a power vacuum. It didn’t end with the people of the power begging Burt to become leader. While Angel was fumbling around, trying to get people to listen to him, Burt ran in headfirst, barked out orders, and took charge.

I would disagree with Michael not being given leadership. In the beginning Angel was indeed in charge...for like 3 minutes. But once Saul threw his hat into Michael's corner, it was downhill from there. Sure, Michael tried to keep the structure, but it soon became apparent (even to Angel) that Michael was the true leader of the Tower. Even Angel gave Michael the role of leader.

When I say "give" I don't mean there's a conscious conversation of "Hey, you want to be leader?" What I mean by that is the way people act and who the instill their confidence in. The entire Tower trusts Michael, and while certainly a good portion (if not all of them) trust Angel as well, they don't trust him in the same way. Angel hasn't done much to prove he can lead and you did a lot in your post proving it as well. His entire storyline has been plagued by one line that he seems to repeat over and over again: Maybe they/it will just go away. That hasn't done anything to instill confidence in those who would follow him. Even when Michael stepped down, the fist thing Angel says when Kalani asks if that makes Angel in charge he said "Uh, sort of." That's not the charisma or confidence you want in a leader.


It’s the same scenario with our country even. Leadership is not just given to our president. For six months, candidates duke it out in the elections fighting tooth and nail for command and leadership of this country. We, the people don’t just bestow leadership, they fight to show the voters that they are the best candidate for the job.


It's hard to debate this because the structure of a democratic election is so much different than that of a....well for all intents and purposes a dictatorship. There's no election process for the leadership in the Tower. The cream rises to the top, and the people follow that leader.


This one made me think. I literally spent about an hour just seething over this looking for a way to poke a hole in this, to somehow find a counterpoint. And I couldn’t find one. Until I started thinking about the reason people did things for Burt and Michael that they didn’t for Angel. Confidence. Angel lacks confidence in himself.
Agreed. Angel has very little confidence in himself...right now. It's comin' though.


Because here’s the thing, people WILL do things for Angel, and there are very specific examples of this, ALL of which are in the field. Angel’s team mates will follow his orders in the field. Here are the examples:

When Riley and Datu were about to turn back and head home in defeat after Michael’s supposed death at the pumping station, Angel showed some pretty damn good textbook style charisma, and the others fell in line and followed his lead.
The second example of this is with Kalani on the mission for MREs. He showed some damn good leadership and charisma here as well. Of course here’s where people might say, oh Kalani was rebelling and rebutting the whole time, and if Michael was in charge, this would never have happened. But I’d like to direct your eyes to the episode where Michael and co. rescued DARK (Datu, angel, riley, Kalani). Kalani was half dead and was still giving Michael shit the ENTIRE car ride back WHILE being chased by zombies. (This should just tell you a lot about Kalani’s personality.) And let me tell you, Michael wasn’t handling kalani any better than Angel was. Now back to the original point, Kalani was kicking, screaming and bitching the whole way, but Angel still maintained command. You can see this in when Kalani at multiple points want to leave the supplies and go home. Angel stays true to the mission, and DRAGS Kalani with him and FORCES Kalani into helping him complete the mission. If that isn’t charisma, then nothing is.


I'm going to say this now and get it out of the way: Angel is much better in the field than he is in an office. He has been able to get things done despite very long odds.

With Riley and Datu: yes, he forced them forward because he had a goal already laid out before him. With Kalani: Yes, he forced him forward because he had a goal already laid out before him. Angel does well when he's given a task. He will complete the mission he's given come hell or high water. That makes him an effective Number 2. He doesn't lay out the missions on his own. He follows through on the orders and missions someone gives him perfectly to a T. Even dropping off Latch's body. He was given a task by Pegs, and he followed through beautifully. He is the Bret Hart of the Tower: The Excellence of Execution.


So basically the whole point of that tirade was to establish this, Angel shows charisma in the field. Why? Because Angel is confident in the field, he’s confident in his abilities, he’s confident in his experiences, and he knows exactly what the hell he’s doing. Because Angel displays this confidence in the field, people will follow his leadership. Angel lacks confidence to lead the tower as a whole, and confidence, is why people will do things for Michael that they won’t do for Angel.

I'm not going to argue the semantics of pulling Kalani by his teeth to do something vs. inspiring Kalani to follow his lead. Ultimately, the job got done. But I would argue that there's no way in hell you can say Kalani ever followed Angel's lead except when they were being chased by the Behemoth, but that's survival not devotion to a leader.


So at the end of the day, I suppose I can’t really prove you wrong, (as much as I really want to) Every character in this series goes through development, but I’d like to argue that Angel goes through, and I’m predicting that he will continue to go through more development than the others. And one of the biggest themes surrounding Angel’s growth, is leadership. Angel was trained to be a leader, and he was not up to the task in so many ways. With this character, his development revolves around him gaining the experience and finding the confidence to finally fill that leadership role that he was originally meant to fill but failed.

And at the end of my day, I can't necessarily prove that Angel isn't a good leader either, mainly because he hasn't had a real chance to lead yet except at the very beginning when it wasn't clear what was going on. I agree with you that Angel lacks confidence in himself when creating plans or taking the helm. Angel is still growing up as a person and eventually he'll get to the point where Michael was in the beginning and be able to mesh the field experience he's gained with the book knowledge he has and become a good leader.


Here’s something I think might be very possible, If you were to throw Burt, Angel and Michael into the field, Angel would be clashing with the others over the best course of action, because Angel is confident in the field, he knows what he’s doing, he knows what he’s up against. And with that confidence, will come the “fire” to want to take leadership, and the charisma that will have others follow his orders.

So at the end of the day, add confidence to the list of shit angel has to achieve before he’s ready for leadership

I'm gonna tweak your in the field scenario this way. Angel cannot compare to the personality types of Michael and Burt. Odds are, those two would be at each other's throat the entire time they would be on this supposed mission. Angel wouldn't really be able to get a word in edge wise while those two are fighting. He'd have to wait for them to tucker each other out before he could even make a suggestion...or he could shoot one of them to get the other's attention. It's not easy trying to take control of a situation when you're dealing with two alpha dogs. However, if this scenario does happen to crop up, and Angel is able to get a word in edge wise, he's well on his way to being a standalone leader of the Tower.

Confidence added to the Angel's Leadership List.

Don't be afraid to debate me, Ra1th. You hold your own perfectly fine! And you know I think Angel is a good guy and that he's growing. We ultimately agree, I just run around the forums playing devil's advocate to like....everything.

[HaveCrowBarWillTravel]

Nik, Ra1th,

time to wade in again. Nik, you said Angel hasn't been given the chance to lead. Flip that. He has, he just couldn't seize the moment. The story started out with him throwing his rank around, but once ish hit the fan, he got ran over by Mike and Saul.
In the Military, a Lt trying to throw his/her weight around in the field will probably end up in deep doo doo.
Anyway, Charisma actually isn't something Angel has. He has a personality that is growing but no one is going to NATURALLY fall in line behind him.

One of the basic tenants of Leadership is: Have a strong hand, be decisive. Another is Set Goals, have a vision and get people to buy into that vision.
In this case- Mike said "We're going to find a place to stay and we're going to pick up survivors along the way."
They did that and as more people arrived he set the tone and the rules. He then delegated authority to the different heads and got them to buy into the survival tactics.
Here's another example: Tommy and the Cameras. Mike shut down Kelly and he inspired "Innovation" by Tommy (Encouraging Innovation is another characteristic of leadership by the way).

It took Marcus to teach Mike the most important quality in war: People will die because of what you say or do. Live with it. That's a Winstin Churchill view on giving orders.
Not everyone is meant to be a leader. Every leader needs his/her inner circle. Lincoln says "Every leader must find his GRANT"
Angel will probably always be a GRANT.. probably. Maybe he's a good Manager type.

I think Angel's place is best as the mediator. I don't think he'd have to wait for Burt or Mike to "Tucker out" before he could get a word in. He has a strong enough personality not to get punked like that. He'd insert himself and get them to work together or come up with the plan himself (even leaders turn into followers at times) and have them tweek it.

[nikvoodoo]

I think Angel's place is best as the mediator. I don't think he'd have to wait for Burt or Mike to "Tucker out" before he could get a word in. He has a strong enough personality not to get punked like that. He'd insert himself and get them to work together or come up with the plan himself (even leaders turn into followers at times) and have them tweek it.

I will not even attempt to get into an argument with you about Military service and how people act that are serving. I don't even remotely come close to having that experience. But overall I agree with you. What I was saying about having the chance to lead is Angel had an opportunity in the beginning, squandered it and then never got the chance to lead again because of his lack of confidence/charisma. I should have been clearer. He has had opportunities, like you mentioned, to take control but has not been able to do so.

And as I was saying Angel makes a perfect second in command to Michael. They compliment each other really well. I love that quote from Lincoln, it sums up the command structure of the Tower perfectly. Michael is Lincoln, Angel is Grant. As for the tucker each other out, I meant that as Angel trying to be the leader. If he was trying to take command over Michael or Burt, I don't think he'd be able to get a word in edge wise. If he was acting as a mediator, as you put it, or in some advisory role I think anyone in charge would be more than happy to listen to his suggestions.

[Yoyo]

I want to say that Michael at least believes that Angel if should he die and something had happen to Burt, he would rise to the occasion to be a great leader or someone that would take care of the tower. While I can't say that Angel has what it takes to take the reins of leading the tower while Michael and Burt are there, I will say Angel would be as good as Michael or Burt in that he has much good sense as them. If anything, Michael is probably someone more deserving of a higher rank than what he has in the military but just didn't bother in training to become a officer (same with Saul the way that Michael said if he had kept his mouth shut, he would be a higher rank than him). Now what I'm saying is that Micheal had he applied himself to become a career officer had the potential to be of a higher rank than Angel. Especially had he not spent three tours in Iraq.

So the way I see it, Angel has all what it takes to lead the tower and be good at it but just maybe Michael is as good (if not better) that it both wouldn't matter to Angel to try to be leader as he has enough to deal with and because Michael presence is enough to leave it as it is.

[Ra1th]

Yoyo, you are my new best friend

and crowbar, nik, MY RESPONSE IS COMING
i've just been superbusy today

[Ra1th]

Aite I gotta break this down, cause it’s too long to respond to three different essay responses. So I’ll start with this.


“ Angel hasn't done much to prove he can lead and you did a lot in your post proving it as well. His entire storyline has been plagued by one line that he seems to repeat over and over again: Maybe they/it will just go away. That hasn't done anything to instill confidence in those who would follow him. Even when Michael stepped down, the fist thing Angel says when Kalani asks if that makes Angel in charge he said "Uh, sort of." That's not the charisma or confidence you want in a leader. “


Well first up, Angel no longer says, “maybe they will go away “ anymore. We saw this when he fought the behemoth. Give him credit he’s not the nancy boy he was when he started out.




"I'm going to say this now and get it out of the way: Angel is much better in the field than he is in an office. He has been able to get things done despite very long odds.

With Riley and Datu: yes, he forced them forward because he had a goal already laid out before him. With Kalani: Yes, he forced him forward because he had a goal already laid out before him. Angel does well when he's given a task. He will complete the mission he's given come hell or high water. That makes him an effective Number 2. He doesn't lay out the missions on his own. He follows through on the orders and missions someone gives him perfectly to a T. Even dropping off Latch's body. He was given a task by Pegs, and he followed through beautifully. He is the Bret Hart of the Tower: The Excellence of Execution. “


This is a good skill, but this doesn’t detract from his ability to lead at all. You have to start somewhere, for angel it starts in the field. No one is born a leader, that is a skill that has to be earned. For some it comes easier than others, but others have to work at it before they achieve that charisma. Angel is of the latter, and right now, he is earning that charisma on the field.




“I'm not going to argue the semantics of pulling Kalani by his teeth to do something vs. inspiring Kalani to follow his lead. Ultimately, the job got done. But I would argue that there's no way in hell you can say Kalani ever followed Angel's lead except when they were being chased by the Behemoth, but that's survival not devotion to a leader. “



And here we’ll clash. You should go back and listen to the last scene between Kalani and Angel in the truck on their way home. Maybe Angel didn’t turn Kalani into his indoctrinated soldier who’ll follow him to the end of the world and back but instead he turned Kalani into an ally and a friend. Maybe it’s not “leadership” but Kalani would do a hell of a lot more for Angel than he would ever do for Burt or Michael. Angel has a different style of converting his followers. He converts them into friends not subjects to be judged and ruled over. Of course this wouldn’t work with a large group of people, but that style would work even better than Michael’s or Burt’s style for a group like the tower.




“Don't be afraid to debate me, Ra1th. You hold your own perfectly fine! And you know I think Angel is a good guy and that he's growing. We ultimately agree, I just run around the forums playing devil's advocate to like....everything.”



Not so much fear of debating you, it’s just a pain in the ass to have to type out these 10 of these 3 page essays to win, or to bring it to a standstill.


holdup the other responses are coming

[MrScott101]

Angel for the moment doesn't appear to have the all out confidence needed to be leader and can be a bit hot headed without reasoning or looking at things from more than one side in a heated situation. Granted he's not like that all the time and there are several times where he has a great idea. I think that group will not take him as a serious lead because of that. If Michael was to leave again, I don't think Burt will step back up but I can see Saul and Angel co-lead.

At least in this point of the story I just don't think Angel has what it takes to do it himself. It would be great character dev to see him gain the skills and respect needed to be in a leader position.

(edit side note, this was prior to the post above)

[Ra1th]

Angel for the moment doesn't appear to have the all out confidence needed to be leader and can be a bit hot headed without reasoning or looking at things from more than one side in a heated situation. Granted he's not like that all the time and there are several times where he has a great idea. I think that group will not take him as a serious lead because of that. If Michael was to leave again, I don't think Burt will step back up but I can see Saul and Angel co-lead.

At least in this point of the story I just don't think Angel has what it takes to do it himself. It would be great character dev to see him gain the skills and respect needed to be in a leader position.

(edit side note, this was prior to the post above)

I'll give you some points, like that he doesnt quite have the confidence to lead the tower just yet.

here's where character development comes in, When angel first started out he couldnt do shit. He was useless in the field, and no one followed him period. Over season 1 and 2 he's grown into probably the best field commander in the tower, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say he's even better than Michael at this, and to back it up, I'll quote nikvoodoo.

"He follows through on the orders and missions someone gives him perfectly to a T. Even dropping off Latch's body. He was given a task by Pegs, and he followed through beautifully. He is the Bret Hart of the Tower: The Excellence of Execution. “
It’s also worth considering that Angel goes on more missions than anyone else in the tower. Saul’s been dying half the series. Michael, for the first half of the series, was leader, and couldn’t leave the tower, and for the second half of the series had his arm broken, which left their workloads to my boy here.
So nowadays Angel is your go to guy for field ops. Considering where Angel was at the beginning of the show regarding field experience, and where he is now, there is a world of difference. Angel is a character that literally represents growth and potential. (I’m gonna make a supernerdy reference here. Angel is like a Magicarp, when he starts out he’s ridiculously weak, and he cant do much, but as he grows, he’ll evolve into a gyarados and turn into one of the best damn pokemon out there. )

As for saul and angel co leading. No. way. In. fucking. hell. That’s a disgrace! I’d rather just have Angel die than have him be so shitty a leader that he cant do it on his own. (and that’s saying something ) Saul was never a leader, saul was always a follower. Saul’s not the sharpest tool in the shack either.

If angel isn’t capable to lead on his own, then he doesn’t deserve it. If that was the case, I’d be the angriest of the fans if that happened, because that’s literally saying Angel never reached his potential. He has an almost unlimited room to grow. That’s Angel’s strength. He can work and improve and better himself.

At this point in time, It is impossible to argue that Angel is capable enough to lead. I know it’s impossible because I spent a good bit of time trying to make an argument for that and failed miserably. So I stick to hope for the future. Angel’s future lies in

Every character has a story. Pegs’ is how she overcomes her fears, and her weaknesses, and becomes a strong and capable character.
Tommy wanted to be useful. And before he died, he was out there in the battlefield setting up cameras and keeping guard so that the tower stood a chance in fighting the Mallers.

Burt’s storyline is in protecting others, and keeping watch over his friends. His wife died, and he couldn’t do anything to stop it. He was then all alone. The tower gave him a second chance. He now has friends and people he cares about deeply. And his biggest goal is to keep them all safe no matter what. That’s why he ended up in a leadership role after the war. He wanted to keep his friends safe. That’s why tommy’s death hit him so hard. He failed to keep tommy safe. That is Burt’s storyline

And this continues on for every character, there is a theme surrounding them. For angel it’s leadership, he failed to lead in the beginning of the story. His development is in becoming a leader among the people, and finally being able to step into the shoes that he originally failed to fill.

[HaveCrowBarWillTravel]

Ra1th,

The only thing I'd counterpoint to this is that Saul has the most experience in the field that both Mike and Angel. I'm talking total experience. Angel has more recent experience and intel on the infected, but Saul is a better tactician and is actually more confident. Reference the two times he's used his knife vs the Molotov Behemoth moment. Angel might as well have said "I throw like a girl!" LOL. messing with you there.
That was just a confidence piece I wanted to bring up really.

Nik, I' really curious about what Military exp you were talking about NOT debating.

[nikvoodoo]

Nik, I' really curious about what Military exp you were talking about NOT debating.

You said something about a lt throwing their title around in the field getting in deep doo doo. I'm not military so I wouldn't know. there wouldn't be a point in being all like "nuh uh!" Because you'd know better than I.

but even without military experience, every one knows what makes a good leader because most likely we've all had at least one example in our lives.

[HaveCrowBarWillTravel]

Ahhh I gotcha. thanks for the reply. I can say in 20 years active duty, i've had 2good leaders. The rest have been managers.

[Robalypse]

Interesting discussion with some solid arguments all around.

Angel is probably my favorite character in this series, partially because of how dynamic he is as a personality. I'd have to agree with where this discussion seems to be concluding that as it stands now, Angel has more of the potential to grow into someone who could be a great leader, than pull it off right now. Michael clearly has had the persona of a leader from the get go, I think anyone who has lived has met those folks in groups of friends who seem to just fall into that role somehow like he does. Yet it sounds like when he was actually overseas, he was more content to remain at a rank where he wouldn't have to be responsible for many others, so it seems it's something he had to grow into himself, he just had longer to do it than Angel.

I do think Angel deserves a hell of a lot more respect from the tower residents, including Michael than he currently gets though. He's done arguably more for the tower than anyone, including deciding on the tower in the first place.

[Ra1th]

Ra1th,

The only thing I'd counterpoint to this is that Saul has the most experience in the field that both Mike and Angel. I'm talking total experience. Angel has more recent experience and intel on the infected, but Saul is a better tactician and is actually more confident. Reference the two times he's used his knife vs the Molotov Behemoth moment. Angel might as well have said "I throw like a girl!" LOL. messing with you there.
That was just a confidence piece I wanted to bring up really.

Nik, I' really curious about what Military exp you were talking about NOT debating.

even though saul has the most experience, he has a few weaknesses. One, he has terrible aim, you can see this when michael chooses Angel over saul in clearing out the hallway after they rescued lizzy. the second is that saul, even with all his experience remained a specialist. Michael said it himself, the only reason saul didn't outrank him is because saul couldnt keep his mouth shut. Allthough i will give you this he is confident in himself. But is that confidence a little misplaced? He was dead certain of himself when he made that bet with Lizzy, and he lost. But without a doubt saul's abilities in the field exceed Michael's and Angel's like setting up zip lines and close combat with the knife. but that aim is a serious blindspot. I dont know if leadership is one of the themes surrounding saul, it's never really come up with him.

[Yoyo]

Ra1th,

The only thing I'd counterpoint to this is that Saul has the most experience in the field that both Mike and Angel. I'm talking total experience. Angel has more recent experience and intel on the infected, but Saul is a better tactician and is actually more confident. Reference the two times he's used his knife vs the Molotov Behemoth moment. Angel might as well have said "I throw like a girl!" LOL. messing with you there.
That was just a confidence piece I wanted to bring up really.

Nik, I' really curious about what Military exp you were talking about NOT debating.

Well, one can also argue that Saul is just more gun ho about dealing with them(!) as he was willing to rush to the Humvee when they were in the hardware (or was it grocery store?) when Angel was right to pause for a moment to see for a better option. Of course, Saul then thought to activate the car alarms to distract Them! but Angel sees that discretion is the better part of valor. He is just as brave when it comes to fighting but is rather more careful when entering the situation. I still have to give up the point that Angel could just be a sucky pitcher but hey, I'm no better ha. And yes, not so good tactician as he didn't even come up with the building falling down on the behemoth plan.

Other than that, Angel rank of Liutendant more or less really does signify being second in command. Even before the outbreak, he was second in command to the commander. As much as I would argue that Angel would be a great leader, it is hard to argue against Micheal being a better leader than Angel. Angel is just more uncaring about people than he would care to admit. I mean he gave up on Bert, Saul, and that un-named woman being dragged by the zombie. Furthermore, he was going to let Liz be zombie food rather than open the door along with wanting to hold up just by themselves during the outbreak at the beginning. Maybe this is something he will grow to care more about as he patch things up with Kalani and that was a vauable experience.

On the flipside, Michael and Saul go leaps and bounds for the people (and animals) they care about. Michael literally hit a person with a shovel in a place he knew next to nothing about and Saul was willing to save his dog during a zombie attack. If anything, I think it would be a major plot point to have Angel not do the same for someone like Riley and have her die. It would showcase the difference Angel has compared to the other 2 army men but then again, this more or less happened when he left saul to die. Bert did the same thing too and he made up for it in his willingness to fight.

But in Angel defense to multiple things: Angel at the beginning was rather shooken up by the thought of zombies actually being real and he had not combat experience. He let Michael take the lead while still remaining in command which in my mind, is the sensible things to do as to let someone who knows what they're doing do what needs to be done. Once they were at the tower, Michael just happen to set the pace where Peg and Riley took to him to be the one in charge. They didn't know better that Angel was the one theorically in charge. Seeing that Peg and Riley look to michael, he deferred Michael to keep in charge of the tower and their safety while he led the scavenger mission. Which in this case, seems again the right thing to do as to keep things simple as possible.

Moving on, Angel in the wake of Michael nonappearance on the roof, probably did not feel it was right to outright say he was when Michael could be coming in any second after him despite how dismal the chance of that happening was at the time. He still at the time contested what Bert plans were and still came after him to talk sense into Bert when he was trying to leave. His only major failing is that he didn't order issues the way michael did after the zombies were gone. Even then, I felt it was only because Angel felt that Michael would come back to being his old self in leading the tower sooner rather than later. I would think he didn't want to complicate that though I admit on Angel part, a failure to shine through. Bert on the otherhand, didn't have such notions so immediately took to ordering issues and it is what lead to him to be the de facto leader. It helped Bert too that all the orders he gave out were rather sensible and had Angel had a problem with said orders, I do believe he would have seize control.

Overall, Angel has what it takes to be a great leader and I do forsee him taking leadership one day (maybe though as a leader of a second base of operations which to me would be most likely as Michael is too good and too needed not to be leader) but he is comfortable taking a backseat to someone else being in the lead. Afterall, it his job description to be second in command and leader in abscence of said leader.

P.S. I do hope i did not bore anyone with tears with what i said.

[yarri]

I love all three characters. Michael, Angel and Saul for vastly different reasons.

Angel, is young and very smart. He does lack experience in a military aspect but Michael in the first chapters gave him respect for the fact.. HE is trained to see the bigger picture and plan accordingly. Michael is trained to execute that plan. Angel is willingly putting himself out there into harms way and learning and trying to expand himself. I think in time he could lead.. But here is the point my tired brain is trying to make.. Michael, Saul and Angel are in my opinion.. meant to be together. They need each other. Each of them has something the others lack.. Michael sometimes needs a voice of reason. (Angel) Angel needs the experience and support that Michael brings and willingly shares with him.. They both need Saul. He keeps them from taking themselves to serious. He makes them both more human.. (and before you all poke me for being saul's fan girl I will only say.. Everyone needs a Saul. and you all know I am right!!! :) )

Back to Angel. Do I see him leading in time.. Yes.. I see him stepping up to the plate when they need him in the most critical time and being successful.

[mythicgr66]

not until some thing major happens to angel as he needs to grow up as a leader wouldn't of gone back to bed when lizzy got kicked out and the same to burt as he folded to steven.

[Dyehardjr]

not until some thing major happens to angel as he needs to grow up as a leader wouldn't of gone back to bed when lizzy got kicked out and the same to burt as he folded to steven.

Umm, hello... did you actually listen to episode? Angel jumped through a window. That only happens in movies, and still the protagonist gets hurt. You try jumping through a window, running from, let's see, a Behemoth, almost getting squished underneath a building, and not go back to bed after being woken up from a fight, which you didn't even want to be part of.
Angel going back to bed doesn't mean that he has poor leadership qualities... it just means that he is tired, and wants to rest.

As for Bert, sure, he didn't have any more movie quotes to throw back at him, but he even admitted that he isn't used to leading civilians. He was used to leading soldiers, people who trusted him, not civilians who are mostly lost in this world without protection. Bert does have the ability to be a leader, in some ways that it.
Wait a few Chapters, and I'm sure he will help everyone with some major plan of some sort.

[Rock Daddy]

I feel like when Angel finally steps in, it will be when they are no longer in the tower. But I definitely do see him becoming a leader at some point. Even if it's a scenario where the tower folk split up...

[Dyehardjr]

I feel like when Angel finally steps in, it will be when they are no longer in the tower. But I definitely do see him becoming a leader at some point. Even if it's a scenario where the tower folk split up...

Ya, i see that too. Angel is good at leading smaller groups of people that are doing some sort of mission. But I don't believe that he could actually take control of all the tower folk. That is Michael's job.

[mythicgr66]

Umm, hello... did you actually listen to episode? Angel jumped through a window. That only happens in movies, and still the protagonist gets hurt. You try jumping through a window, running from, let's see, a Behemoth, almost getting squished underneath a building, and not go back to bed after being woken up from a fight, which you didn't even want to be part of.
Angel going back to bed doesn't mean that he has poor leadership qualities... it just means that he is tired, and wants to rest.

As for Bert, sure, he didn't have any more movie quotes to throw back at him, but he even admitted that he isn't used to leading civilians. He was used to leading soldiers, people who trusted him, not civilians who are mostly lost in this world without protection. Bert does have the ability to be a leader, in some ways that it.
Wait a few Chapters, and I'm sure he will help everyone with some major plan of some sort.

I mean in an emotional way as angel is not brave enough to take charge, when you listen to him you dont really belive in him, jumping though a a window is nothing to leading a group of people who will blame you for any little mistake you make, Michael was a great leader until he snaped and now he's back (YES!!), Burt ok he's has lead marines (Ooh-rah) people who are trained to take orders, the way to describe Burt is as a Gunny (he has people to order but dosent make the big choices)

[Ra1th]

I mean in an emotional way as angel is not brave enough to take charge, when you listen to him you dont really belive in him, jumping though a a window is nothing to leading a group of people who will blame you for any little mistake you make, Michael was a great leader until he snaped and now he's back (YES!!), Burt ok he's has lead marines (Ooh-rah) people who are trained to take orders, the way to describe Burt is as a Gunny (he has people to order but dosent make the big choices)

excuse me?

(you win voodoo, i stayed retired for a total of one and a half days, screw that, i'm back )

he just jumped through a damn window and killed a damn behemoth, i'm sorry i dont understand how that isnt "brave enough" or "believable". How does this even affect leadership?

I dont even understand your argument, Burt was a gunny sgt so he gained leadership abilities? well then, Angel was a 2nd ltnt he was specifically TRAINED to lead, his failures came in not knowing what to do in the field, and lemme tell ya, i dont see precious michael or burt taking down behemoths

[mythicgr66]

excuse me?

(you win voodoo, i stayed retired for a total of one and a half days, screw that, i'm back )

he just jumped through a damn window and killed a damn behemoth, i'm sorry i dont understand how that isnt "brave enough" or "believable". How does this even affect leadership?

I dont even understand your argument, Burt was a gunny sgt so he gained leadership abilities? well then, Angel was a 2nd ltnt he was specifically TRAINED to lead, his failures came in not knowing what to do in the field, and lemme tell ya, i dont see precious michael or burt taking down behemoths

michael or burt would of killed the behemoth while it was knocked out on the floor

[Ra1th]

you're kidding me...

i dont think you understood the scene, he went through a WINDOW, he's bleeding out... he could barely walk anymore because glass shards went through his leg, hence the line " go on without me, theres no way i'll be able to run on this leg" (and then skittles saves the day)

there is no evidence backing up anything you're saying right now, this whole thread is based around evidence and context clues, please make sure that you back up your arguments with evidence otherwise there is no grounds for your statement

[HaveCrowBarWillTravel]

*sitting on the sofa snickering*
This is classic. I'm staying out of this, but enjoying it. That was a valiant effort to stay out the line of fire Ra1th. I salute you!

Hey KC, is Angel a Butter Bar?

[mythicgr66]

but you only bring up that one moment, what about when burt was locked in the shop and he told saul to leave him or when lizzy arived at the tower, just because you have been trained to lead dosen't mean you can.

if angle were in charge Burt and lizzy would be dead, the mallers would of won due to the lack ammo (which burt told them about) or taken over as angel let them in the front door, listen two chapter 2, ok in time angel will be a great leader, but currently he's not he didn't step in to help lizzy, so what if he is injured, micheal stood up to help saul and he had a badly broken arm.

he's proved loyaty & sacrafice with Kalani, but he still need to prove he can command, when the mallers arived at the tower he tried to reason, even after saul told what he saw what them do, whould he of knocked out the guy who tazered Pegs, most likely no and ended up being tazed him self, if he's in my squad watching my back angel is one to count on but not to lead he's still not experienced enough and wont stand up to people he always tries to work things out.

wait this is going knowhere, lets make this simple right now in this moment in time would you have angel as your leader?

me personaly no, he is still not ready, if you asked me this in the first few chapters i would never follow Angel but in a bitmore time he could lead.

[Dyehardjr]

ok in time angel will be a great leader, .

Then just say that. Right now, I don't think he can lead either. I believe he himself doesn't believe he could lead the Tower. But in the future, I'm sure he could.

[Ra1th]

Much better


but you only bring up that one moment, what about when burt was locked in the shop and he told saul to leave him or when lizzy arived at the tower, just because you have been trained to lead dosen't mean you can. .

No sir, you mistake intelligence with cowardice. The right decision in both of those situations was to LEAVE THEM. Burt was a dying old man, the chances were one in a million that he turns out to be this gun toting clint eastwood badass. More than likely he would have died on them and it would have been a waste of precious supplies. It was a miracle things turned out the way it did

As with lizzy, the right decision should have been to leave her. By shooting the lock and opening the door for her, Michael risked the lives of every person in that tower.

From a leadership standpoint, Angel made the right decision both times, but he was overridden by “hail mary” logic, basically let’s make an insane decision and follow through and hope for the best, if it succeeds, we’re heroes, if it fails we’re all dead. Since this is fiction, they pull off some insane things, and avoid serious repercussions for very stupid decisions, but the decisions Angel made were not so much cowardice as they were the best possible choices. And considering it from that perspective, Michael and Burt both have yet to realize this, and this could lead to their downfall. The hail mary only has to fail once to ruin everything .


if angle were in charge Burt and lizzy would be dead, the mallers would of won due to the lack ammo (which burt told them about) or taken over as angel let the min the front door, listen two chapter 2, ok in time angel will be a great leader, but currently he's not he didn't step in to help lizzy, so what if he is injured, micheal stood up to help saul and he had a badly broken arm. .
Yes, if Angel was in charge Burt, and Lizzy would be dead. Do you know why they are alive? Because Michael used a hail mary, and things worked out, when the hail mary works, everyone is happy, and you’re a hero, but do you know what happens if a hail mary fails? You lose EVERYTHING, had lizzy been saved, but Michael not reached the door in time, EVRYONE in the tower would have died. Since this is a story it worked out, had burt turned out to be any normal old man, which all things considering what are the odds burt is the marksman that he is, and that he has a stockpile of illegal weapons. Its very low, burt would have been a bad addition to the team, he would be an old guy who’s physically feeble and cant do much to help out the team, but the hail mary worked, and he turned out to be a gun toting badass.

As for the Mallers, we do not have enough information to state, that the Mallers would have won without the weapons and ammo from burt’s armory. There are an infinite number of possibilities that could have happened had they not gotten all the ammo from burt, they would have made that a priority and they would have found it somewhere else. This is not a valid argument because it is not supported by any evidence.


he's proved loyaty & sacrafice with Kalani, but he still need to prove he can command, when the mallers arived at the tower he tried to reason, even after saul told what he saw what them do, whould he of knocked out the guy who tazered Pegs, most likely no and ended up being tazed him self, if he's in my squad watching my back angle is one to count on but not to lead he's still not experienced enough and wont stand up to people he always tries to work things out. .

Once again not a valid argument because there is no evidence backing any of this up, this is just what you hypothesize might happen in this situation, I could hypothesize differently but it doesn’t matter because there is no evidence so once again irrelevant.


wait this is going knowhere, lets make this simple right now in this moment in time would you have angel as your leader?

me personaly no, he is still not ready, if you asked me this in the first few chapters i would never follow Angel but in a bitmore time Angle could lead.

This is not the conclusion you gave me before. Two posts ago you were telling me that angel was a failure for being “not believable” and “not brave enough” to be a leader.
But that being said this is a much better conclusion to arrive at, angel is a character with unlimited growth potential, and he’s been growing at a very fast pace so far, chances are he’ll continue to grow at a fast pace. Do I want angel as the leader right now? No not right now, because right now, the situation is dire, and Michael has more experience leading the tower in such situations, Angel needs to be eased into leadership, right now, the tower is on the brink of war, don’t change horses when crossing a stream.

[Ra1th]

*sitting on the sofa snickering*
This is classic. I'm staying out of this, but enjoying it. That was a valiant effort to stay out the line of fire Ra1th. I salute you!

Hey KC, is Angel a Butter Bar?

ehhhh i tried man i tried, but shit somethings just never change hahaa,

new more reasonable goal: never get super worked up about it

[mythicgr66]

Then just say that. Right now, I don't think he can lead either. I believe he himself doesn't believe he could lead the Tower. But in the future, I'm sure he could.

but that is what i said (ok i admit not in those words), all i said was Angel is not ready untill something in him changes, i might of needed to have been clearer on that but Ra1th took offence to what i said, i didnt say no or never, just not currently.

hell he might prove him self in the next chapter and completely prove me worng, when they attack the mallers new base (most likelly were michael, pegs, kelly, hope, victor and Dr.??? (dam whats her name sauls mother) escaped from) cant wait to see Angel pull a Rambo lol

[Ra1th]

but that is what i said (ok i admit not in those words), all i said was Angel is not ready untill something in him changes, i might of needed to have been clearer on that but Ra1th took offence to what i said, i didnt say no or never, just not currently.

hell he might prove him self in the next chapter and completely prove me worng, when they attack the mallers new base (most likelly were michael, pegs, kelly, hope, victor and Dr.??? (dam whats her name sauls mother) escaped from) cant wait to see Angel pull a Rambo lol


yeah fun fact about me, attack angel, and i'll do everything and anything i can to bring you down

but then you get guys like nik and crowbar who enjoy debates, and they'll want more and then it turns into a giant war

[mythicgr66]

yeah fun fact about me, attack angel, and i'll do everything and anything i can to bring you down

but then you get guys like nik and crowbar who enjoy debates, and they'll want more and then it turns into a giant war

well i got owned lol

[nikvoodoo]

The right decision in both of those situations was to LEAVE THEM. Burt was a dying old man, the chances were one in a million that he turns out to be this gun toting clint eastwood badass. More than likely he would have died on them and it would have been a waste of precious supplies. It was a miracle things turned out the way it did.
The right thing to do in those situations is determined by the world in which we live. Without living in a zombie apocalypse, we (as humans living safely in our quiet non-zombified world) can't say what is right or wrong. The entire purpose of a species is to thrive and survive. That instinct might become sharper and more aware once the world as we know it ends. Was Riley also wrong for shooting the zombie with an arrow outside of the Arena that was dragging that woman who died seconds later? I'd argue no she wasn't. She was trying to save a life.


As with lizzy, the right decision should have been to leave her. By shooting the lock and opening the door for her, Michael risked the lives of every person in that tower.
From a leadership standpoint, Angel made the right decision both times, but he was overridden by “hail mary” logic, basically let’s make an insane decision and follow through and hope for the best, if it succeeds, we’re heroes, if it fails we’re all dead. Since this is fiction, they pull off some insane things, and avoid serious repercussions for very stupid decisions, but the decisions Angel made were not so much cowardice as they were the best possible choices. And considering it from that perspective, Michael and Burt both have yet to realize this, and this could lead to their downfall. The hail mary only has to fail once to ruin everything .

Angel's decisions were book smart, not street smart. We can agree there is a difference between the two. Angel is a very book smart leader, Michael is a very street smart leader. Continuing with my logic above, Angel is prepared to lead in a world that no longer exists. Michael (though also prepared for the same world Angel is) also has enough experience to be able to riff off the knowledge he's gained to make decisions. Think of it like classical music vs. jazz music. Both Angel and Michael are wonderful trumpet players, but Angel (our classical player) sticks to the notes on the page, whereas Michael (the jazz man) takes that basic idea and improves on it because of his understanding of musicality and style.

Yes, if Angel was in charge Burt, and Lizzy would be dead. Do you know why they are alive? Because Michael used a hail mary, and things worked out, when the hail mary works, everyone is happy, and you’re a hero, but do you know what happens if a hail mary fails? You lose EVERYTHING, had lizzy been saved, but Michael not reached the door in time, EVRYONE in the tower would have died. Since this is a story it worked out, had burt turned out to be any normal old man, which all things considering what are the odds burt is the marksman that he is, and that he has a stockpile of illegal weapons. Its very low, burt would have been a bad addition to the team, he would be an old guy who’s physically feeble and cant do much to help out the team, but the hail mary worked, and he turned out to be a gun toting badass.
So you're saying that Angel has the right to decide who lives and who dies by virtue of their perceived value? And Michael was already standing at the door when he shot the lock off. There was no getting to the door. He was already there. You say hail mary, I say calculated risk.


As for the Mallers, we do not have enough information to state, that the Mallers would have won without the weapons and ammo from burt’s armory. There are an infinite number of possibilities that could have happened had they not gotten all the ammo from burt, they would have made that a priority and they would have found it somewhere else. This is not a valid argument because it is not supported by any evidence.
No, this is a valid argument. Without Burt's guns and ammo not only does the Tower fall, Angel dies two chapters earlier in the arena trying to escape. And if they get outside, they get swamped and are unable to leave because they can't fend off the zombies attacking the hummer. If you claim this is an invalid argument, so is your counter that they would have made ammunition a priority. That, too, is not supported by evidence.


Do I want angel as the leader right now? No not right now, because right now, the situation is dire, and Michael has more experience leading the tower in such situations, Angel needs to be eased into leadership, right now, the tower is on the brink of war, don’t change horses when crossing a stream.
I'm wondering how the gentle easing and exchange of power will occur in a zombie apocalypse? The situation is always going to be dire (supplies are running short, other groups coming to attack etc etc). In Kc's universe, we've really only seen power taken in one way: abruptly. If Angel needs to be eased into it, he will continue to be the Riker to Michael's Picard unless Michael is incapacitated in some manner, Angel is incapacitated in some manner or the series ends.

P.S.- Be gentle on the newcomers man! shovel:)

[Wicked Sid]

excuse me?

(you win voodoo, i stayed retired for a total of one and a half days, screw that, i'm back )

he just jumped through a damn window and killed a damn behemoth, i'm sorry i dont understand how that isnt "brave enough" or "believable". How does this even affect leadership?

I dont even understand your argument, Burt was a gunny sgt so he gained leadership abilities? well then, Angel was a 2nd ltnt he was specifically TRAINED to lead, his failures came in not knowing what to do in the field, and lemme tell ya, i dont see precious michael or burt taking down behemoths

Mike may have done it first. Blam. Just because Angel went through OC school doesn't mean that he's garaunteed to become a good leader or, for that matter, a leader at all. Only time creates diamonds.

[Luna Guardian]

As long as Michael and Burt are around and willing to lead, no, I don't think Angel will be able to take control of the Tower. However, should Michael go on another one of his "walkabouts", I think there's a possibility that Angel might take charge. He's not a dumb guy, he's just woefully unprepared for the new world we find our heroes in. With time, he'll adapt and become a better leader

[Ra1th]

The right thing to do in those situations is determined by the world in which we live. Without living in a zombie apocalypse, we (as humans living safely in our quiet non-zombified world) can't say what is right or wrong. The entire purpose of a species is to thrive and survive. That instinct might become sharper and more aware once the world as we know it ends. Was Riley also wrong for shooting the zombie with an arrow outside of the Arena that was dragging that woman who died seconds later? I'd argue no she wasn't. She was trying to save a life.

Angel's decisions were book smart, not street smart. We can agree there is a difference between the two. Angel is a very book smart leader, Michael is a very street smart leader. Continuing with my logic above, Angel is prepared to lead in a world that no longer exists. Michael (though also prepared for the same world Angel is) also has enough experience to be able to riff off the knowledge he's gained to make decisions. Think of it like classical music vs. jazz music. Both Angel and Michael are wonderful trumpet players, but Angel (our classical player) sticks to the notes on the page, whereas Michael (the jazz man) takes that basic idea and improves on it because of his understanding of musicality and style.

Michael leads and is able to improvise using experience he’s gained from the old world, combined with the post apocalyptic world experience he’s gained. He used his oldworld expertise to gain a footing in the new world, and began leading a small group of people, as time went by he gained experience and the group slowly grew larger so he was eased into this role and gained the experience he needed to lead and improvise.

So what I’m saying now is that Angel has gained the field experience that Michael once had that angel lacked, but for him to lead he doesn’t get eased into the role like Michael did. If he is to step into the role, there will be 20-30 people depending on him at all times, so he needs more to become a great leader. (this is what the last war was on, charisma, fire, etc). I’d say angel has the ability to improvise in the field, what he needs to be able to do now, basically he applied his book smarts to the real world and gained the street smarts needed to navigate the post apocalyptic world. I’m saying he needs to do the same thing with leadership. When he does, I think he’ll make for an even greater leader than Michael.


So you're saying that Angel has the right to decide who lives and who dies by virtue of their perceived value? And Michael was already standing at the door when he shot the lock off. There was no getting to the door. He was already there. You say hail mary, I say calculated risk.

You say calculated risk, the show says acting without thinking. If you recall after that scene, Angel pulls Michael aside and yells at him for jeopardizing the safety of the entire tower to save one person. To which Michael responded,” what was I supposed to do? “let them die?”, and angel’s response was yes. Because had Michael failed, everyone would have died. After this saul intervenes, and he says, don’t listen to angel, he’s a prick. Michael takes a moment to calm down and thinks for a second then regretfully replies.” He was right, I put the entire tower at risk by opening that door” basically he admits he acted on instinct, to save someone because that’s his training as a soldier. Then saul gives his speech on hail mary passes. This is the difference between a soldier and an officer. As a soldier Michael’s job was to do everything to keep everyone alive, officers have to make difficult decisions on who lives and who dies. A friend of mine who’s training to be an officer in the marine corp told me, that officers are often kept apart from their soldiers because they don’t want them getting too attached to their men, because sometimes its necessary to send people to their deaths. Those are the difficult decisions that a leader has to make. Michael made a mistake that day plain and simple, and as you’ve said before, perspective perspective, we’ve seen the perspective where lizzy becomes a great asset to the tower, had she died then and there, her death would have been trivial at best, she would have been some girl that they couldn’t save. It’s the same story with burt, people are angry at the thought of angel not saving burt, had angel not saved burt, burt would have been a trivial character who died. No one would have cared, but we see from a perspective with burt, he’s important to us.


When you ask, if the leader has the right to decide who lives and who dies by the virtue of their perceived value”, I say yes, that is a leader’s choice, and that is the leader’s burden. This is something an officer in the military must deal with, sometimes the best choice means people die. Sometimes if it’s too much of an effort, some people must be left to suffer. A good leader must put the safety of his people first, if that means that some random old man who might already be dead not be saved because there is a serious lack of supplies, then so be it. It is the leader’s burden and his choice to decide who lives and who dies.


No, this is a valid argument. Without Burt's guns and ammo not only does the Tower fall, Angel dies two chapters earlier in the arena trying to escape. And if they get outside, they get swamped and are unable to leave because they can't fend off the zombies attacking the hummer. If you claim this is an invalid argument, so is your counter that they would have made ammunition a priority. That, too, is not supported by evidence.

ok I didn’t state things clearly there, what I meant to say was that, the story developed a certain way because of the events that happened. All I’m saying is that, there is more than one way to reach the same destination. We don’t know how the story would have turned out had burt and lizzy not been saved, but we cannot reach the conclusion that the tower would have died without burt/lizzy, because maybe burt being left behind and lizzy dying at the front door would have unlocked other possibilities, other roads to go down, other paths to follow. In short, its possible that if lizzy and burt weren’t there, maybe the tower wouldn’t have encountered the Mallers at all? Who knows? We sure as hell don’t, cause that’s not the path the story followed.



I'm wondering how the gentle easing and exchange of power will occur in a zombie apocalypse? The situation is always going to be dire (supplies are running short, other groups coming to attack etc etc). In Kc's universe, we've really only seen power taken in one way: abruptly. If Angel needs to be eased into it, he will continue to be the Riker to Michael's Picard unless Michael is incapacitated in some manner, Angel is incapacitated in some manner or the series ends.



As for how gentle the exchange of power will be, right now is a VERY bad time, because right now, the tower is in a state of crisis. Even when Michael wanted to stop being leader he did not stop being leader during the war with the Mallers or during the fire, because shit was going down, and a change of power was not possible at that time. He quit after the war, after things had cooled down, were things bad then? Yes there was a lot that had to be done, but it was a calmer situation than right now, Right now we are accelerating to a war, saul is on a warpath, the tower came this close to launching a full frontal assault on the Mallers. The situation is heightening fast, now is definitely not the time for a power switch, plus Michael is doing good, he’s fired up, he just got his job back, he wont be changing leadership for a while. but when that time does come, it has to be either AFTER a climax or during the lull between the climax and the next storyline climax, not right before or during a climax.. if that made any sense

[Ra1th]

Mike may have done it first. Blam. Just because Angel went through OC school doesn't mean that he's garaunteed to become a good leader or, for that matter, a leader at all. Only time creates diamonds.

no he's not, as a matter of fact, when angel first started, he was really incapable in the field, he couldnt do anything, despite his officer training, but he's grown past that now, he's one of the best men to send into the field, no matter what his mission might be, Angel will always succeed. (Thats right haters, come get some, Angel has never failed a single mission he's been on). So now he has the street smarts, and the officer training, what he needs now is charisma and the fire to want to lead.

[Ra1th]

As long as Michael and Burt are around and willing to lead, no, I don't think Angel will be able to take control of the Tower. However, should Michael go on another one of his "walkabouts", I think there's a possibility that Angel might take charge. He's not a dumb guy, he's just woefully unprepared for the new world we find our heroes in. With time, he'll adapt and become a better leader

i'll give you the michael part, but Burt is done, he had a shot at leadership, and he's done, he wants nothing to do with it, besides his storyline revolves around protecting his friends and keeping them safe because he wasnt able to save his wife.

[ryanlm09]

Angel will take control and will possibly have the position for a long time

[ryanlm09]

... but because he takes the position, he will die a slow, horrible death

[Ra1th]

... but because he takes the position, he will die a slow, horrible death

i'd say its the other way around, Michael dies a terrible death to save everyone, angel takes over, and becomes a good leader forevaaar

[nikvoodoo]

I promised you I wasn't going to go at you blow by blow this time, and I'm keeping that promise. So I'm just gonna cherry pick instead of going after all your points.


You say calculated risk, the show says acting without thinking. If you recall after that scene, Angel pulls Michael aside and yells at him for jeopardizing the safety of the entire tower to save one person. To which Michael responded,” what was I supposed to do? “let them die?”, and angel’s response was yes. Because had Michael failed, everyone would have died. After this saul intervenes, and he says, don’t listen to angel, he’s a prick. Michael takes a moment to calm down and thinks for a second then regretfully replies.” He was right, I put the entire tower at risk by opening that door” basically he admits he acted on instinct, to save someone because that’s his training as a soldier. Then saul gives his speech on hail mary passes. This is the difference between a soldier and an officer. As a soldier Michael’s job was to do everything to keep everyone alive, officers have to make difficult decisions on who lives and who dies.

Just ignore the fact that we're talking about Angel for the moment. Soldier A has the respect of a small group of civilians and has been acting as a leader despite having Officer B there too. In the eyes of everyone there (except Officer B), Solider A is in charge, not Officer B. Leadership is determined by actions and those who follow those actions. And in this case Solider A (though not expressly told he's in charge or having some large ceremony saying he's in charge) is in charge. Ok, back to the story.

With the breakdown of society, so too go the titles associated with the old guard. Angel may have once been the defacto leader by title at the start of the story, but he was not the leader in practice by the time of Lizzy's admission into the Tower. Michael was because everyone around him made him the leader by their actions.

I know what Michael said, of course (I'm not going to prove your points for you my good sir, Ra1th! You must do your due diligence!). His reaction worked two fold: 1. It showed Michael was capable of understanding his reactions have severe consequences thus making him a deeper character and 2. It was done to show the audience that Angel isn't viewed as a total asshole by Michael. If Michael reacted any other way to Angel's tirade, the perspective of Angel's character to the audience changes drastically.



When you ask, if the leader has the right to decide who lives and who dies by the virtue of their perceived value”, I say yes, that is a leader’s choice, and that is the leader’s burden.
And this is again getting down to the crux of the argument between you and the Angel fans, and the others on this board: Angel is not perceived as the leader. It wasn't his decision to make. And might I point out, Angel was all about letting both Todd and Lizzy and would have if he had the key on him at the time. One could argue that Angel reacts the way he does on Michael out of guilt. One could indeed argue that.....but I'm just baiting you because I don't actually believe that.

So I suppose that's my question to you: At the moment Lizzy arrived at the Tower who was the perceived leader of the Tower group? Not who claimed leadership, who was the true leader? That will get to the heart of this particular argument we're having today.

[Ra1th]

ok, so for the people watching/reading this debate, me an nik were talking via chatbox on an issue, so we're putting this on ice for a bit and solving this other debate first before moving back

the problem rises about how in ch 2 episode 1, michael shoots the lock to let Lizzy and todd in. Todd doesnt make it, lizzy does. Angel then yells at michael for jeopardizing the safety of teh entire tower for one person.

the debate now is on what was angel was angry about.

so basically the chain of events goes like this

Michael is sleeping back against the stairwell door, He hears lizzy and todd banging on the door, he opens the stairwell door, and calls for help, angel rushes downstairs, michael tells angel to get the key, angel runs upstairs for the key, michael goes to the stairwell door, the zombies are closing in and angel isnt going to make it in time, Michael shoots the lock, the zombies get todd, lizzy and michael then run to the stairwell door.

now my argument is that angel was angry about michael leaving the stairway door unattended. His exact words were, " you could not have made it to the this door in time and everyone upstairs would be dead. Sympathy aside this is an entirely different situation"

so that about sums it up, losing the lobby isnt so great, but the that could be reclaimed, had michael and lizzy not made it back to the stairwell in time, or they'd been killed before then or something the zombies would have made it into the tower and everyone would be dead

[nikvoodoo]

now my argument is that angel was angry about michael leaving the stairway door unattended. His exact words were, " you could not have made it to the this door in time and everyone upstairs would be dead. Sympathy aside this is an entirely different situation"

so that about sums it up, losing the lobby isnt so great, but the that could be reclaimed, had michael and lizzy not made it back to the stairwell in time, or they'd been killed before then or something the zombies would have made it into the tower and everyone would be dead

And the reason he and I aren't seeing eye to eye is this: My understanding of Angel's blow up has always been because Michael destabilized the safety of the Tower by shooting the lock and making the lobby insecure and over run with zombies. By taking the action of destroying the lock on the front door, he let the baddies in which is the bigger issue. The reason Angel points out the stair way door is because had he not made it back (after Michael destroyed the lock and let the zombies in) they would have all died.

To me, it's the destruction of the Front Door's lock that Angel took issue with. So now we open it up to you. What do you think? It's in Chapter 2-1. The sequence begins around the 5 minute mark and continues until about the 9 minute mark.

[Ra1th]

but his exact words are " you could not have made it to the this door in time and everyone upstairs would be dead."

even if angel was on his way back down the stairs with the key, having 4 or 5 zombies come up would not have been a situation he was prepared for, he lacked field exp back then , he prly wouldnt have survived that, hence me saying its the stairwell

[yarri]

My 2 cents.... There are a dozen quotes I can't quote them all so I will summarize. Please bare with me. The primary security for the whole tower was that front door lock. Angel was angry Michael shot out that lock. There was every possibility that Michael could have fallen at the front door with Tod and Lizzie leaving the main door upstairs which was not the strongest door open and inviting any zombie that felt the desire to walk up stairs for a late night snack. He (angel) is at this point not prepared to lead. I like the term.. Riker to Picard.. Michael is the leader the tower needs at this stage in the game. He is tried and tested by war. He is a front line solder a leader of men in the face of combat. HE stinks of leadership and confidence. Angel as a butter bar LT.. does not. But he is learning from Michael. When and IF they survive and get out of LA to some place else a place were a semi normal civilization can be established.. Then it changes. But for now.. Michael is it leader.

[Ra1th]

Ok, what part of " you could not have made it to the this door in time and everyone upstairs would be dead.” Is not coming across? There is nothing being said about the front door lock, and in the end, they managed to secure the tower without the front door lock so that really has nothing to do with this at all.

The issue is that had Michael not made it to the second door and closed it in time, the zombies would have KILLED EVERYONE IN THE TOWER, that is a lot worse than losing the front lobby, especially considering they barricaded the stairwell door.

Once again the exact quote is " you could not have made it to the this door in time and everyone upstairs would be dead. “

THIS door, this door meaning the door they were standing right next to, the stairwell door

[Zombiehead]

I only read #41-45.

I relistened and it sounds to me that he was upset at Michael over shooting the lock AND letting the zombies inside. Had Michael died before he got to the door, the rest would have been caught off guard and died too. You're both right. /thread

[yarri]

The second door would not have held without Michael's intervention. Hell it nearly didn't hold. The primary door was their first line of defense their best line of defense. Had Michael managed to shut the second door even with himself in the lobby they still would have battered the second door down before Angel could have manged to get the tower folk to help reinforce it. The tower folks didn't respond to him as fast as they did Michael. Michael was the instigator of reinforcement for the 2nd door too. The lobby is a very very large piece of ground to give up.

[Ra1th]

My 2 cents.... There are a dozen quotes I can't quote them all so I will summarize. Please bare with me. The primary security for the whole tower was that front door lock. Angel was angry Michael shot out that lock. There was every possibility that Michael could have fallen at the front door with Tod and Lizzie leaving the main door upstairs which was not the strongest door open and inviting any zombie that felt the desire to walk up stairs for a late night snack. He (angel) is at this point not prepared to lead. I like the term.. Riker to Picard.. Michael is the leader the tower needs at this stage in the game. He is tried and tested by war. He is a front line solder a leader of men in the face of combat. HE stinks of leadership and confidence. Angel as a butter bar LT.. does not. But he is learning from Michael. When and IF they survive and get out of LA to some place else a place were a semi normal civilization can be established.. Then it changes. But for now.. Michael is it leader.


Precious Michael is not the only one who has field experience anymore, angel has been on more field ops than anyone in the tower. He also knows combat and can deal with zombies just as well as Michael can. Angel WAS a butter bar lt. that’s not the case anymore, in the time Michael was a cripple and saul was half dead, angel was the only soldier running missions, during this time he carried the weight of the other two on his own, that puts you above a butter bar, a butter bar is a term for an inexperienced inept officer who hasn’t seen combat right? well angel has been knee deep in the shit for the last month, how is he still a butter bar?

Right now, Angel cannot lead because he lacks the charisma to keep the people of the tower in line. Once he gains that charisma he has the skill and the experience to lead in any damn environment.

[yarri]

Precious Michael is not the only one who has field experience anymore, angel has been on more field ops than anyone in the tower. He also knows combat and can deal with zombies just as well as Michael can. Angel WAS a butter bar lt. that’s not the case anymore, in the time Michael was a cripple and saul was half dead, angel was the only soldier running missions, during this time he carried the weight of the other two on his own, that puts you above a butter bar, a butter bar is a term for an inexperienced inept officer who hasn’t seen combat right? well angel has been knee deep in the shit for the last month, how is he still a butter bar?

Right now, Angel cannot lead because he lacks the charisma to keep the people of the tower in line. Once he gains that charisma he has the skill and the experience to lead in any damn environment.

I never said inept and I take offense to that. Angel is one of my favorites. We are talking about a specific time frame. NOT anything after Ra1th.. At the time of the argument he was a butter bar with Zero combat/field experience and anything like that gets you killed in the field.

[Ra1th]

ok for the lock problem, let's say time wasnt an issue and that angel made it downstairs with the key, he and michael need to UNLOCK the door anyway to let todd and lizzy in, they would have had to face the zombies and let them into the lobby no matter what if they were to rescue lizzy/todd. had angel made it down with the key, one of them would have stood at the stairway door and guarded it, while the ohter opened the front door for the lizzy/todd.

so the lock was going to have come off no matter what, so the front door isnt the issue the lack of a guard at the stairway door is.

and you can't say angel's goal was to leave lizzy and todd to die because he ran upstairs to get the key, his problem is that michael didnt wait for a second person to keep guard at the stairway door as a backup in case michael never made it back from the front door

[yarri]

ok for the lock problem, let's say time wasnt an issue and that angel made it downstairs with the key, he and michael need to UNLOCK the door anyway to let todd and lizzy in, they would have had to face the zombies and let them into the lobby no matter what if they were to rescue lizzy/todd. had angel made it down with the key, one of them would have stood at the stairway door and guarded it, while the ohter opened the front door for the lizzy/todd.

so the lock was going to have come off no matter what, so the front door isnt the issue the lack of a guard at the stairway door is.

and you can't say angel's goal was to leave lizzy and todd to die because he ran upstairs to get the key, his problem is that michael didnt wait for a second person to keep guard at the stairway door as a backup in case michael never made it back from the front door

That is a HUGE what if friend.. as going for the keys.. Todd and Lizzie would be dead before the door opened. I won't say it was his goal.. it wasn't. But in combat someone who is trained to see the "big picture" which Angel was and Michael did give him credit for.. sometimes you have to have collateral damage .. death to save lives.
There was no time for the key.. none at all. It was now or never and they still lost Todd.

[Airborne_101mf]

Yarri is right on this one...I hate to say it but ive been put in that very situation many times...and it blows...everyone has their own way of leading. I Myself tend to risk the entire group to save the one....Ill call it like it is Im an Ole snake eater and I truly down to the very fiber of my core believe that either all of us go home or none of us to...they only way I will allow someone to die willingly is if THEY choose to stay behind to slow up the enemy....

I myself am MORE than willing to risk my life for EVERY single one of my men....

~M~

[nikvoodoo]

so the lock was going to have come off no matter what, so the front door isnt the issue the lack of a guard at the stairway door is.

The lock was going to have to come off, but the lock wasn't going to have to be destroyed. The issue is that Michael destroyed the lock. Listen to what Angel says before the quote you're sticking to about the stairwell door:
Angel: They're inside?!
Michael: It's too late
Angel: What the fuck happened?
Michael I had to shoot the lock.
Angel: You what?!

It's all about destroying their safeguard at the front door.

And after that is the real key line from Angel: "You jeopardized everyone's life by letting them in" That's the focus. Not the stairwell door. The stairwell door was an example of how things could have gone wrong if Michael hadn't acted quick enough to the situation he created. Angel was presenting a hypothetical to Michael by talking about the stairway door.

[Ra1th]

Fin you win on the stupid door, it was trivial anyway


I promised you I wasn't going to go at you blow by blow this time, and I'm keeping that promise. So I'm just gonna cherry pick instead of going after all your points.
Light argument my ass voodoo, look what this has spiraled into



Just ignore the fact that we're talking about Angel for the moment. Soldier A has the respect of a small group of civilians and has been acting as a leader despite having Officer B there too. In the eyes of everyone there (except Officer B), Solider A is in charge, not Officer B. Leadership is determined by actions and those who follow those actions. And in this case Solider A (though not expressly told he's in charge or having some large ceremony saying he's in charge) is in charge. Ok, back to the story.

With the breakdown of society, so too go the titles associated with the old guard. Angel may have once been the defacto leader by title at the start of the story, but he was not the leader in practice by the time of Lizzy's admission into the Tower. Michael was because everyone around him made him the leader by their actions. .

I can’t argue with you there, if this had happened in the army, Angel’s leadership is backed up by rank, Michael would be court marshaled for mutiny and disobeying orders. But its not, these guys are their own government, and the leader of the group is bound by no laws, and by no one other than the people.



And this is again getting down to the crux of the argument between you and the Angel fans, and the others on this board: Angel is not perceived as the leader. It wasn't his decision to make. And might I point out, Angel was all about letting both Todd and Lizzy and would have if he had the key on him at the time. One could argue that Angel reacts the way he does on Michael out of guilt. One could indeed argue that.....but I'm just baiting you because I don't actually believe that.

So I suppose that's my question to you: At the moment Lizzy arrived at the Tower who was the perceived leader of the Tower group? Not who claimed leadership, who was the true leader? That will get to the heart of this particular argument we're having today.

Michael was the leader at that time, Michael had been leader since him and saul broke into the base and got the weapons. I don’t even remember what we were debating before this so your going to have remind me

[HaveCrowBarWillTravel]

no he's not, as a matter of fact, when angel first started, he was really incapable in the field, he couldnt do anything, despite his officer training, but he's grown past that now, he's one of the best men to send into the field, no matter what his mission might be, Angel will always succeed. (Thats right haters, come get some, Angel has never failed a single mission he's been on). So now he has the street smarts, and the officer training, what he needs now is charisma and the fire to want to lead.

ehhehe! This just gets, better and better!
Hey Ra1th! Angels still throws like a girl!

[HaveCrowBarWillTravel]

Precious Michael is not the only one who has field experience anymore, angel has been on more field ops than anyone in the tower. He also knows combat and can deal with zombies just as well as Michael can. Angel WAS a butter bar lt. that’s not the case anymore, in the time Michael was a cripple and saul was half dead, angel was the only soldier running missions, during this time he carried the weight of the other two on his own, that puts you above a butter bar, a butter bar is a term for an inexperienced inept officer who hasn’t seen combat right? well angel has been knee deep in the shit for the last month, how is he still a butter bar?

Right now, Angel cannot lead because he lacks the charisma to keep the people of the tower in line. Once he gains that charisma he has the skill and the experience to lead in any damn environment.


Charisma is a leadership trait. You have it or you don't. it's not a learned trait. If it was, then everyone would or could be a leader. That's the difference between "Leaders" and "Managers." That's why the Magic Johnsons and Michael Jordans only come along once in a lifetime. The Pattons and Churchills and the Mandela's of the world. There isn't anything wrong with being a manager. Many corporations are led by managers. The big difference is that you can't manage people into war. They have to be led.

I almost missed the "Butter Bar" question. Sorry. It's simply a term for a Lt who's just entering the military (2nd Lt). The color of their bars are sort of a soft gold. So we call them Butterbars. An O6 is a Col. We call them "Full Birds" and Lt Col's are sometimes called "Light Colonel" as in he/she "ain't there yet"
Yes, it is also a term for wet behind the ears.
I was asking KC about his "rank" only. It gives me a glimpse at his post outbreak experience and age. (Kids right out the academy are all college KIDS) They do their 4 years and are turned loose in the various branches. I could have asked if he was a 2nd Lt, but i'm an NCO and (Lt's 1st or 2nd) drive us crazy... period.

"like Lincoln, the best, most decisive lears are those who have a set purpose and the self-confidence to accomplish that objective. But effective visions and noble goals can be made worthless without solid decision-making leadership....Sometimes he is wrong and sometimes he chooses to compromise.." Lincoln on Leadership

Make a decision, act on that decision. if it's wrong, then it's wrong.. just MAKE a decision.

That's it for me.. signing off and out!

[Ra1th]

Charisma is a leadership trait. You have it or you don't. it's not a learned trait. If it was, then everyone would or could be a leader. That's the difference between "Leaders" and "Managers." That's why the Magic Johnsons and Michael Jordans only come along once in a lifetime. The Pattons and Churchills and the Mandela's of the world. There isn't anything wrong with being a manager. Many corporations are led by managers. The big difference is that you can't manage people into war. They have to be led.

I almost missed the "Butter Bar" question. Sorry. It's simply a term for a Lt who's just entering the military (2nd Lt). The color of their bars are sort of a soft gold. So we call them Butterbars. An O6 is a Col. We call them "Full Birds" and Lt Col's are sometimes called "Light Colonel" as in he/she "ain't there yet"
Yes, it is also a term for wet behind the ears.
I was asking KC about his "rank" only. It gives me a glimpse at his post outbreak experience and age. (Kids right out the academy are all college KIDS) They do their 4 years and are turned loose in the various branches. I could have asked if he was a 2nd Lt, but i'm an NCO and (Lt's 1st or 2nd) drive us crazy... period.

"like Lincoln, the best, most decisive lears are those who have a set purpose and the self-confidence to accomplish that objective. But effective visions and noble goals can be made worthless without solid decision-making leadership....Sometimes he is wrong and sometimes he chooses to compromise.." Lincoln on Leadership

Make a decision, act on that decision. if it's wrong, then it's wrong.. just MAKE a decision.

That's it for me.. signing off and out!

i'd fight back, buuut, 6 or 7 pages from now, its all gonna end in a stand off anyway so might as well save the trouble.

so what do you mean by full bird? where'd that one come from?

[nikvoodoo]

I think this is an interesting insight dealing somewhat closely to a lot of the things we're talking about here from a very experienced real life leader. Retired General Stanley McChrystal

http://www.ted.com/talks/stanley_mcchrystal.html

[HaveCrowBarWillTravel]

i'd fight back, buuut, 6 or 7 pages from now, its all gonna end in a stand off anyway so might as well save the trouble.

so what do you mean by full bird? where'd that one come from?

Full Bird (Army, AF and Marines 06/Colonel)is a nick name just like Butter Bar, but BB is normally said with a hint of contempt because they're still wet behind the ears. Ones from the Academy are really looked at sideways. Prior Enlisted get a pass most of the time depending on their TIS (Time in Service).

[nikvoodoo]

Well....this topic hasn't been brought up in just over a month...I think I will just go ahead and bump it back into everyone's memory.

After all, Angel did just leave the room with a "prisoner" and a blind girl...And one or potentially both of them got shot. This is just one more example of why Angel should never lead the Tower.

[Kc]

Well....this topic hasn't been brought up in just over a month...I think I will just go ahead and bump it back into everyone's memory.

After all, Angel did just leave the room with a "prisoner" and a blind girl...And one or potentially both of them got shot. This is just one more example of why Angel should never lead the Tower.

That's something said in hindsight of course ;) No pun intended.

[Ra1th]

Well....this topic hasn't been brought up in just over a month...I think I will just go ahead and bump it back into everyone's memory.

After all, Angel did just leave the room with a "prisoner" and a blind girl...And one or potentially both of them got shot. This is just one more example of why Angel should never lead the Tower.


IT IS ON, IT IS ON TILL THE BREAK OF DAWN! (but I'm a bit busy right now, so I'll come back in a few hours and then IT WILL BE ON!)

[nikvoodoo]

That's something said in hindsight of course ;) No pun intended.

I absolutely agree. If I had been in his shoes, I would have run down the hall to check too. My ultimate goal was to bait ra1th a little bit.


IT IS ON, IT IS ON TILL THE BREAK OF DAWN! (but I'm a bit busy right now, so I'll come back in a few hours and then IT WILL BE ON!)
And look! I Worked! :p

[cupcakezombie]

Its ok Ra1th, you don't have to be the only one to have Angel's back. :)

I don't think Angel was that much in the wrong leaving Hope in the room. She was there to learn how to help with guard duty, so they (Michael had no problem with her being there) trusted her to be able to do this. Pippen was handcuffed, and it sounds like Angel only went down the hall. I would have done the same thing, except I might have said to Hope to stay there and call out if she needed anything (but that is only if I had thought of it). There is not much he could have done differently.

[HardKor]

Its ok Ra1th, you don't have to be the only one to have Angel's back. :)

I don't think Angel was that much in the wrong leaving Hope in the room. She was there to learn how to help with guard duty, so they (Michael had no problem with her being there) trusted her to be able to do this. Pippen was handcuffed, and it sounds like Angel only went down the hall. I would have done the same thing, except I might have said to Hope to stay there and call out if she needed anything (but that is only if I had thought of it). There is not much he could have done differently.

I agree with you on this. I don't think its going to help Angel much if Hope did get shot though. If she dies, Angel's gonna get blamed for it, and I don't want to even think about how Datu's going to react, he might try to kill Angel for "letting her die."

[Ra1th]

I agree with you on this. I don't think its going to help Angel much if Hope did get shot though. If she dies, Angel's gonna get blamed for it, and I don't want to even think about how Datu's going to react, he might try to kill Angel for "letting her die."

How will Datu react? Same way Datu always reacts lol by running away crying .


Allright nik ( and Crowbar) , I just aced my finals, NOW I'M GONNA ACE YOU!

The argument is, Angel is at fault for leaving pippin unguarded to go check on the alarm going off in Burt's shop. I don't see what the problem is with this decision Pippin was chained... to a wall. He wasn't about to go anywhere. He wasn't going to be able to hurt Hope, because he was CHAINED. he wouldn't be able to cause chaos and craziness in the tower, because he was CHAINED. The guy wasn't going anywhere. So I think it's established, that Pippin was not a threat to the tower.

So the next step is Angel the Pippin is dead, and Hope or the radio has been shot? Yes, if he had not ran to check on the armory, they'd be alive. But maybe you're forgetting, the armory alarm had been tripped. The armory had been raided before, and the rat had stolen all of their supplies. When the alarm was tripped, the first reaction of any soldier, EVEN the infallible Michael would have done the same thing. The logic behind it is simple, Pippin was chained to a wall, he wasn't going anywhere. The armory on the other hand was possibly being raided by the traitor. The best choice at that time would have been to run and check out what was happening at the armory, and possibly find out who tried to break in. The armory is on the same floor as the guard room, and I believe they are both on the second floor. Well the majority of the tower has relocated itself to the 5th and 6th floors of the tower after the fire, so there is a very good chance that Angel was one of the only ones who were in the vicinity to hear the alarm go off. So basically, best decision he coulda made was to check out the armory rather than keep guard over pippin, because no one could have assumed that pippin would fall under attack. The only logical move in that situation was to go check on the armory.

[kafu288]

Doesn't matter if it was a logical move or not, leadership is about perception and faith. You really think some residents of the tower, such as Steven, would want to be lead by a man who failed while he was on duty and had 1(2) people shot on his watch? I DOUBT IT!

Angel was right to go check but that doesn't excuse the fact that this was a huge nail in the "Angel ever leading the tower" coffin

[nikvoodoo]

How will Datu react? Same way Datu always reacts lol by running away crying .


Allright nik ( and Crowbar) , I just aced my finals, NOW I'M GONNA ACE YOU!

Aww, you're so darling. And why are you bringing crowbar into this? He hasn't said anything about Angel recently.


The argument is, Angel is at fault for leaving pippin unguarded to go check on the alarm going off in Burt's shop. I don't see what the problem is with this decision Pippin was chained... to a wall. He wasn't about to go anywhere. He wasn't going to be able to hurt Hope, because he was CHAINED. he wouldn't be able to cause chaos and craziness in the tower, because he was CHAINED. The guy wasn't going anywhere. So I think it's established, that Pippin was not a threat to the tower.

I don't know how he's chained. Do you know how he was chained? Have you never seen someone strangled with a chain? If he felt like it, he could have wrapped that chain around anyone's throat. According to the chapter artwork, he's handcuffed to the bed frame. If he had horrible intentions in his mind, being left with the 14 year old blind girl seems like a great time to make your move and break free by destroying the bed frame. Is it likely? No. However, simply being chained doesn't make you completely danger-free. Hey, don't get me wrong, my first reaction would have been to run and investigate, but you know what? I would have at least paused to consider the 14 year old blind girl in the room with me. Given her some instruction as to hide something. But he left a defenseless 14 year old girl by herself with someone nobody trusts.


So the next step is Angel the Pippin is dead, and Hope or the radio has been shot? Yes, if he had not ran to check on the armory, they'd be alive. But maybe you're forgetting, the armory alarm had been tripped. The armory had been raided before, and the rat had stolen all of their supplies. When the alarm was tripped, the first reaction of any soldier, EVEN the infallible Michael would have done the same thing. The logic behind it is simple, Pippin was chained to a wall, he wasn't going anywhere. The armory on the other hand was possibly being raided by the traitor. The best choice at that time would have been to run and check out what was happening at the armory, and possibly find out who tried to break in. The armory is on the same floor as the guard room, and I believe they are both on the second floor. Well the majority of the tower has relocated itself to the 5th and 6th floors of the tower after the fire, so there is a very good chance that Angel was one of the only ones who were in the vicinity to hear the alarm go off. So basically, best decision he coulda made was to check out the armory rather than keep guard over pippin, because no one could have assumed that pippin would fall under attack. The only logical move in that situation was to go check on the armory.

Once again, 14 year old. Blind. In room. Man you no trusty. I understand that the alarm was tripped. And perhaps its more of an indictment of Michael/Burt (you know...the leaders of the Tower) than it is of Angel to say there isn't any system to get a hold of others in the Tower when something goes wrong. And if I'm not mistaken the guard room has been relocated to the 5th floor, along with everything else. So the store and armory would all be located in the same vicinity as the guard room. Remember, Lizzy fell asleep on guard duty and everyone in the Tower heard the fight because they were all right there. In theory, this means Angel wouldn't even have to like...leave the room to investigate the armory.

And what does he do once he's investigated the armory? Return to his post and wait for others to show up so they can all search. Why leave your post at all at that point? If they are all indeed located in the same hallway of this apartment building, they would have to pass you to escape because there's only one set of stairs, they balconies aren't an option because the ones below the 5th floor have been booby trapped, and you're 50 feet in the air and jumping out the window would have adverse health effects.

I understand I'm taking potshots at Angel after the fact. And as I said in my response to Kc I totally would have gone to investigate the alarm myself. But since I'm willing to admit that I would have made the same "mistake" Angel did, you have to admit that Angel fell for a distraction, and was lured away just as the Rat/Assassin intended him to be. He was chosen as the mark for this ruse, not Kelly who had been in that room with Pippin for the previous 6 hours.

[mascaria]

Maybe some one with some military training can clean up the question for us.

When you're assigned guard duty (as Angel was) are you supposed to leave your station because an alarm goes off?

[Leedo2502]

I see Guard Duty entails security of the whole building. Army General Order #1 is "I will Guard everything within the limits of my post and quit my post only when properly releived." So his post includes security of Burts Armory Angel did the right thin in leaving the Guard Room, and add to that I'm sure that he was getting help as well and that would entail sending someone back to the Guard Room.
So I'd say that Angel did nothing wrong... really the fault lies in not having two people in the guard room on the same shift. That would have curtailed the Kelly/Lizzy falling asleep issues as well (But also take away some of the needed drama and plot movers)

[HardKor]

Ra1th,
I agree with much of what you say. From an unbiased, rational point of view, Angel probably did what he had to do by leaving his post to investigate the alarm. The problem is, once everyone finds out what happens and shit starts to hit the fan, people aren't going to be rational or unbiased. There is going to be panic and chaos. And Angel is going to end up with the blame.
Someone, most likely Michael among others will probably stick up for him eventually, but people are still going to blame Angel for what happened. And Angel will probably end up blaming himself to some degree also. It might not be fair but its going to happen. People are going to look for a scapegoat to blame for this, and until the culprit is found Angel (assuming he isn't the culprit himself) is the easiest scapegoat.
And this is what puts another nail in the "will Angel ever become leader of the Tower" question. This sort of thing just keeps happening to him. He gets blamed for things that aren't necessarily his fault. He makes rational decisions that turn out to bite him on the ass (wanting to leave Burt behind, wanting to not let Lizzie and her boyfriend in because it was too dangerous, etc...) These are the sorts of things that on paper seems rational but make people angry. And now people are going to see him as failing to save Pippin and Hope (if Hope was killed). People just aren't going to want him as leader if that's the way they see him. Is that fair? Absolutely not! But whoever said life was fair?

[Ra1th]

Hahaha I coulda sworn you’d never be able to return but looks like you have, too bad I have the high ground this time.

Aww, you're so darling. And why are you bringing crowbar into this? He hasn't said anything about Angel recently. .

He was hatin too just in the 22 thread.




I don't know how he's chained. Do you know how he was chained? Have you never seen someone strangled with a chain? If he felt like it, he could have wrapped that chain around anyone's throat. According to the chapter artwork, he's handcuffed to the bed frame. If he had horrible intentions in his mind, being left with the 14 year old blind girl seems like a great time to make your move and break free by destroying the bed frame. Is it likely? No. However, simply being chained doesn't make you completely danger-free. Hey, don't get me wrong, my first reaction would have been to run and investigate, but you know what? I would have at least paused to consider the 14 year old blind girl in the room with me. Given her some instruction as to hide something. But he left a defenseless 14 year old girl by herself with someone nobody trusts. .
He was chained well enough that he was not considered a security risk by leader of the tower Michael. So if that was the issue, then blame him. You’re jumping to conclusions by assuming that he can just wrap the chain around someone’s throats. The next thing you should consider is that we the audience consider Pippin to be a bigger threat to the tower than the tower does. We have heard what scratch said about him. The tower has not, and because of that we are a lot more accusatory of pippin than the tower is. They do not trust him, they have no reason to, but at the same time they don’t believe him to be a stone cold killer. So what if he left Hope with alone with Pippin? It wasn’t pippin that killed her. Hell for all we know, pippin could have been good guy, probably wasn’t but no one can be sure, not yet.




Once again, 14 year old. Blind. In room. Man you no trusty. I understand that the alarm was tripped. And perhaps its more of an indictment of Michael/Burt (you know...the leaders of the Tower) than it is of Angel to say there isn't any system to get a hold of others in the Tower when something goes wrong. And if I'm not mistaken the guard room has been relocated to the 5th floor, along with everything else. So the store and armory would all be located in the same vicinity as the guard room. Remember, Lizzy fell asleep on guard duty and everyone in the Tower heard the fight because they were all right there. In theory, this means Angel wouldn't even have to like...leave the room to investigate the armory.

And what does he do once he's investigated the armory? Return to his post and wait for others to show up so they can all search. Why leave your post at all at that point? If they are all indeed located in the same hallway of this apartment building, they would have to pass you to escape because there's only one set of stairs, they balconies aren't an option because the ones below the 5th floor have been booby trapped, and you're 50 feet in the air and jumping out the window would have adverse health effects.

I understand I'm taking potshots at Angel after the fact. And as I said in my response to Kc I totally would have gone to investigate the alarm myself. But since I'm willing to admit that I would have made the same "mistake" Angel did, you have to admit that Angel fell for a distraction, and was lured away just as the Rat/Assassin intended him to be. He was chosen as the mark for this ruse, not Kelly who had been in that room with Pippin for the previous 6 hours.

When Angel gets to the armory, He might catch the culprit. We don’t know for sure just yet. Why leave your post? Because Angel is one of the few people who could make it to the guard room in time to catch the culprit who broke in. We don’t know how many others heard the alarm. We don’t know what’s happening right now. But we do know Angel is one of the most capable soldiers in the tower, and he has a duty to go check out the disturbance. Also here’s something to keep in mind, if the killer could just walk in and shoot Pippin, and walk away undetected, then that hallway must not have been very crowded at all. In hind sight, its easy to say oh there were better choices that he could have made, but these are split second decisions if you are to stand around and think about all the possibilities and the best course of action, then the culprit will slip away. Besides even if the culprit ran back down the hallway towards angel, then he still has to leave the guard room to stop the culprit or to get a good look at the culprit. Even according to your plan angel has to leave the room. How can you be sure that Angel was the mark for the ruse? There is no evidence to support that Kelly would not have done the same thing Angel did. It’s far more likely that the culprit was coming up with a plan, and Angel was the one in the guard room while the culprit finished the plan.

[nikvoodoo]

Hahaha I coulda sworn you’d never be able to return but looks like you have, too bad I have the high ground this time.
I'm so glad you can admit that every other time we've tiffed over Lt. Angel you've been fighting a losing battle. That's very big of you ;)


He was chained well enough that he was not considered a security risk by leader of the tower Michael. So if that was the issue, then blame him. You’re jumping to conclusions by assuming that he can just wrap the chain around someone’s throats. The next thing you should consider is that we the audience consider Pippin to be a bigger threat to the tower than the tower does. We have heard what scratch said about him. The tower has not, and because of that we are a lot more accusatory of pippin than the tower is. They do not trust him, they have no reason to, but at the same time they don’t believe him to be a stone cold killer. So what if he left Hope with alone with Pippin? It wasn’t pippin that killed her. Hell for all we know, pippin could have been good guy, probably wasn’t but no one can be sure, not yet.

14. Blind. Girl. There's a difference between her and an adult. To an adult, he's not a security risk. Were you capable of fighting off a determined adult at the age of 14? While blindfolded so you couldn't see them coming? Look, I'm not a parent, but leaving a handicapped child alone with a man nobody trusts to me, reeks to high heaven.

And I think you make as many assumption to think he isn't capable of doing anything just because he's chained to the wall (or bedframe depending on what you want to believe). In fact, I even helped debunk my own dastardly theory because I saw the artwork. The SFX lead me to believe it's an actual chain and not handcuffs, but that's neither here nor there.

There are still people who don't know if he's a maller or not (Steven) there are those who want to let him loose back into LA (Victor), and Michael can't make heads or tails of it because his mind frame is/has shifted since his time in the colony. Scratch's words be damned, Michael's words are you aren't to let Pippin out of your sight and he's not to be left alone. Angel failed to follow orders. And I'll just go ahead and make your point for you because I know you think I think Michael is perfect: Michael is at fault for leaving the guard as a single person shift.



When Angel gets to the armory, He might catch the culprit. We don’t know for sure just yet. Why leave your post? Because Angel is one of the few people who could make it to the guard room in time to catch the culprit who broke in. We don’t know how many others heard the alarm. We don’t know what’s happening right now. But we do know Angel is one of the most capable soldiers in the tower, and he has a duty to go check out the disturbance. Also here’s something to keep in mind, if the killer could just walk in and shoot Pippin, and walk away undetected, then that hallway must not have been very crowded at all. In hind sight, its easy to say oh there were better choices that he could have made, but these are split second decisions if you are to stand around and think about all the possibilities and the best course of action, then the culprit will slip away. Besides even if the culprit ran back down the hallway towards angel, then he still has to leave the guard room to stop the culprit or to get a good look at the culprit. Even according to your plan angel has to leave the room. How can you be sure that Angel was the mark for the ruse? There is no evidence to support that Kelly would not have done the same thing Angel did. It’s far more likely that the culprit was coming up with a plan, and Angel was the one in the guard room while the culprit finished the plan.

I never said the hallway was crowded. What I said was all it takes is to hide yourself in any other apartment near the guard room and the armory. Kick the door, set off the alarm, and hide. When Angel goes to inspect the armory by going inside to look for a thief, the assassin slipped by him, shot, and walked away before Angel knew what was going on (in theory. The chapter ends before we know this for certain). My point was, in order to escape the Tower if you are believing the armory was being robbed, they would have to walk/run past the guard room to get to the stairs (based off the assumption from the original guard room set up where it was by the stairwell door). If they were robbing the armory to keep things in the tower, they'd have to keep it on the 5th floor, and if they had people helping them on the street level Angel would have seen them on the monitors.

My plan? What plan? The plan where I said you wait for the thief to walk past you on the way to the stairs? Why would he have to leave the guard room if the thief ran into him to the stairwell door where he'd have to go to escape? Point a gun. Shoot. Thief dead. Angel hero, and a 14 year old blind girl isn't left alone with a man nobody trusts.

Maybe Kelly reacts the same way. But it's an awfully big risk if you're trying to take out someone out and you use a diversionary tactic like setting off an alarm. Now if you don't succeed, everyone is on high alert and you've made your job that much harder. I'd make sure the person working the guard room is guaranteed to leave to check out the room and not call for back up. Angel thinks he can handle everything. And if this person knows Angel well, they would know how to entice him away from a target.

All you have to do is admit Angel fell victim to a diversion that resulted in the death of at least one person and possibly two. Is that fair of me? Possibly not. But it's one more nugget of evidence against Angel and why he should never be the leader of the Tower.

[Ra1th]

"I'm so glad you can admit that every other time we've tiffed over Lt. Angel you've been fighting a losing battle. That's very big of you ;)"



That’s Lt TUNUDO kthnxbai



“14. Blind. Girl. There's a difference between her and an adult. To an adult, he's not a security risk. Were you capable of fighting off a determined adult at the age of 14? While blindfolded so you couldn't see them coming? Look, I'm not a parent, but leaving a handicapped child alone with a man nobody trusts to me, reeks to high heaven. “

Once again crazy situation, shit’s going down, some douche is about to steal your supplies, screw the blind girl, she’ll be fine, what’s the worst that could happen? Ohhh noooo some dude with a gun is gonna show up and slaughter everyone in the room…. Oh wait… well shit. What was the chance of that happening one in a thousand?

“And I think you make as many assumption to think he isn't capable of doing anything just because he's chained to the wall (or bedframe depending on what you want to believe). In fact, I even helped debunk my own dastardly theory because I saw the artwork. The SFX lead me to believe it's an actual chain and not handcuffs, but that's neither here nor there. “





Why would he kill hope? What good does that do him? And even if it does. Stopping someone from breaking into the damn armory and stealing all their weapons and ammo again is worth more than the 1 in a thousand chance that pippin would kill hope. And you know what? Pippin didn’t kill hope.




“There are still people who don't know if he's a maller or not (Steven) there are those who want to let him loose back into LA (Victor), and Michael can't make heads or tails of it because his mind frame is/has shifted since his time in the colony. Scratch's words be damned, Michael's words are you aren't to let Pippin out of your sight and he's not to be left alone. Angel failed to follow orders. And I'll just go ahead and make your point for you because I know you think I think Michael is perfect: Michael is at fault for leaving the guard as a single person shift. “



Yeah I know YOU don’t think Michael is perfect, but every other person on this forum thinks he’s god’s gift to the zombie wasteland, so showing people that Michael the perfect soldier would have done the same thing makes it easier to say that Angel didn’t make a bad call.




“I never said the hallway was crowded. What I said was all it takes is to hide yourself in any other apartment near the guard room and the armory. Kick the door, set off the alarm, and hide. When Angel goes to inspect the armory by going inside to look for a thief, the assassin slipped by him, shot, and walked away before Angel knew what was going on (in theory. The chapter ends before we know this for certain). My point was, in order to escape the Tower if you are believing the armory was being robbed, they would have to walk/run past the guard room to get to the stairs (based off the assumption from the original guard room set up where it was by the stairwell door). If they were robbing the armory to keep things in the tower, they'd have to keep it on the 5th floor, and if they had people helping them on the street level Angel would have seen them on the monitors. “



Ok this is some crazy shiz, and I can’t concentrate on that level right now, so whatevers, I’m just gonna say it was a split second decision, no one thinks this far ahead in real life. So he did what his instincts told him to do.



“My plan? What plan? The plan where I said you wait for the thief to walk past you on the way to the stairs? Why would he have to leave the guard room if the thief ran into him to the stairwell door where he'd have to go to escape? Point a gun. Shoot. Thief dead. Angel hero, and a 14 year old blind girl isn't left alone with a man nobody trusts. “
Who the hell expected the raid on the armory to be a distraction? What are the chances that the whole thing was a set up so that someone could go shoot Pippin? This is ridiculous, you’re saying that when Angel heard the alarm go off, instead of going to check on it, he should have stayed in his room, and waited out because he psychically knew that the rat would come in and shoot pippin. You’re taking into consideration facts that Angel did not know, and facts that YOU did not know during the time of the attack. When that alarm tripped, the best decision was to go check it out. Pippin was not a threat to Hope, Pippin never attacked hope. Someone else attacked THEM. To expect angel to have stayed in the room and waited for the attacker to come is just plain stupid

“Maybe Kelly reacts the same way. But it's an awfully big risk if you're trying to take out someone out and you use a diversionary tactic like setting off an alarm. Now if you don't succeed, everyone is on high alert and you've made your job that much harder. I'd make sure the person working the guard room is guaranteed to leave to check out the room and not call for back up. Angel thinks he can handle everything. And if this person knows Angel well, they would know how to entice him away from a target.

All you have to do is admit Angel fell victim to a diversion that resulted in the death of at least one person and possibly two. Is that fair of me? Possibly not. But it's one more nugget of evidence against Angel and why he should never be the leader of the Tower”





I’ll admit Angel fell for a diversion, But Michael would have done the same thing. Burt would have done the same thing. Saul would have done the same thing. You can’t blame angel for something like this because when this was all going down, when you first heard that alarm go off, did you think, oh I think angel should stay here and protect hope? NO! you thought oh shit someone is raiding the armory get on it angel. And THEN the rat shoots pippin, and maybe hope. This isn’t a bad leadership call for Angel. That was the best decision to make at the time.

[nikvoodoo]

That’s Lt TUNUDO kthnxbai

Well....technically that's not right. At least not until the canon of the show gets fixed....till then, Lt. Angel!

Once again crazy situation, shit’s going down, some douche is about to steal your supplies, screw the blind girl, she’ll be fine, what’s the worst that could happen? Ohhh noooo some dude with a gun is gonna show up and slaughter everyone in the room…. Oh wait… well shit. What was the chance of that happening one in a thousand?

And here's where you and I differ on Angel left and right. Angel does not think of the people around him. "Screw the old guy. Screw Lizzy and Todd. Screw Saul. Screw the 14 year old. I've got to go to something else instead!" You know what, all this stuff would be fine with me if he simply said, "Hope, keep your head down", "Hope, get under the bed", "Hope, hide in the closet", or "Hope, stand over here away from that guy that no one trusts" before he left. He left a child out in the open when something potentially dangerous was going down....with a guy nobody trusts.

Angel does not seem to think of human beings as people. He think of them as something else, and that is disturbing to me. At least he's been consistent. If this was a sudden thing, I would just be confused instead of annoyed. He's now seen how people react when he makes those decisions (leaving Burt and Saul) yet he continually does it. The circumstances from when he first arrived at the Tower have changed. From the military point of view, he probably has done nothing wrong, but he's not being judged by the military. He's being judged by civilians, who can't disassociate people from being instruments of war he can view them as.


Why would he kill hope? What good does that do him? And even if it does. Stopping someone from breaking into the damn armory and stealing all their weapons and ammo again is worth more than the 1 in a thousand chance that pippin would kill hope. And you know what? Pippin didn’t kill hope.

So it's ok that he left Hope alone with the person no one trusts because he got shot before he could potentially do anything? And once again, my point is if the guard room is outside the door to the stairwell, you don't.... have to leave. You can wait for the thief to walk down the hall to the stairs because there are no other options available to them. They can't escape any other way. He didn't need to leave the guard room unguarded. They could take all they wanted, but they can't get anywhere because Angel is there. There are other options available....other than doing what I've ended just about every paragraph on the last two pages with involving an untrustworthy Pippin and a 14 year old girl who is visually impaired.




Yeah I know YOU don’t think Michael is perfect, but every other person on this forum thinks he’s god’s gift to the zombie wasteland, so showing people that Michael the perfect soldier would have done the same thing makes it easier to say that Angel didn’t make a bad call.

Hell, I said I would do the same thing....but after I protected the 14 year old blind girl. I think most everyone's instinct would be to check the alarm. I just think most people with a soul would protect a child first, then check on the alarm. If someone is really rooting through the armory. It's going to take longer than the 10 seconds it takes to safely stash Hope and run down the hall.



Who the hell expected the raid on the armory to be a distraction? What are the chances that the whole thing was a set up so that someone could go shoot Pippin? This is ridiculous, you’re saying that when Angel heard the alarm go off, instead of going to check on it, he should have stayed in his room, and waited out because he psychically knew that the rat would come in and shoot pippin. You’re taking into consideration facts that Angel did not know, and facts that YOU did not know during the time of the attack. When that alarm tripped, the best decision was to go check it out. Pippin was not a threat to Hope, Pippin never attacked hope. Someone else attacked THEM. To expect angel to have stayed in the room and waited for the attacker to come is just plain stupid

I am simply presenting an alternative. Besides, as I've said over and over again: I/you/Angel/Michael/Everyone on this forum/Everyone on the facebook page would check the alarm. Its just in my opinion, the blatant lack of regard for the safety of a child is disturbing. Sorry to beat the same drum on the same note repeatedly.

And what else is there to know about Pippin other than nobody trusts him? I'm not even considering what happened with Pippin and Scratch because I don't know who or what Pippin was or what his purpose might have been. His story could have been completely true for all we know. I don't consider Scratch's scene about Pippin in terms of the trust because quite honestly, I never expended the brain power to figure it out. There wasn't enough information to draw a conclusion from it, and it was swamped among coded talk so Lizzy wouldn't understand what was being said. I've tried to take Pippin at face value, and on his face (or whatever might be left of it) was nobody trusted him, and I didn't trust him from his answers in the interrogation scene in the last episode.



I’ll admit Angel fell for a diversion, But Michael would have done the same thing. Burt would have done the same thing. Saul would have done the same thing. You can’t blame angel for something like this because when this was all going down, when you first heard that alarm go off, did you think, oh I think angel should stay here and protect hope? NO! you thought oh shit someone is raiding the armory get on it angel. And THEN the rat shoots pippin, and maybe hope. This isn’t a bad leadership call for Angel. That was the best decision to make at the time.

Yup. I would bet everyone in the Tower (barring the assassin of course) would have fallen for this ruse. And someone should have learned a lesson from the initial betrayal and instituted team guard duty (both Burt and Michael) because its harder to do something dastardly if someone is there with you. Sadly, this wasn't a lesson learned. I betcha one of the first lines Michael says when he finds Pippin dead is to attack Angel for leaving him alone despite being told he isn't to be left alone. If you can't follow orders, you sure as hell can't give them.

[cupcakezombie]

And here's where you and I differ on Angel left and right. Angel does not think of the people around him. "Screw the old guy. Screw Lizzy and Todd. Screw Saul. Screw the 14 year old. I've got to go to something else instead!" You know what, all this stuff would be fine with me if he simply said, "Hope, keep your head down", "Hope, get under the bed", "Hope, hide in the closet", or "Hope, stand over here away from that guy that no one trusts" before he left. He left a child out in the open when something potentially dangerous was going down....with a guy nobody trusts.

Angel does not seem to think of human beings as people. He think of them as something else, and that is disturbing to me. At least he's been consistent. If this was a sudden thing, I would just be confused instead of annoyed. He's now seen how people react when he makes those decisions (leaving Burt and Saul) yet he continually does it. The circumstances from when he first arrived at the Tower have changed. From the military point of view, he probably has done nothing wrong, but he's not being judged by the military. He's being judged by civilians, who can't disassociate people from being instruments of war he can view them as.

The reason he has the position he has is because he has the military training. People in high ranking military positions always get judged by civilians, but if as you say he is making the right decisions from a military position then it shouldn't change the decisions that he makes or will have to make. There could come a time where his type of choices become critical to the survival of the tower.

In regards to leaving Hope without saying anything to her, would saying Hope stay here have made any difference? Then on the flip side, taking Hope with him could potentially have been more dangerous. Someone breaking in to get guns is not where you should take a blind girl. We still don't actually know what has happened down at the armory, there could be all hell breaking loose, and Hope staying in the guard room, even with a prisoner is safer. In fact that is probably the first place people will go when they come to check out the alarm.

[COsurvivor]

I hope the irony of your last sentence is not lost on people...

[mem]

Ra1th to hell with Angel. let Skittles take over the tower. Think of all that candy left alone to ruin in all those stores. If Skittles was there he'd rescue it all! *puts out the Skittles signal* Where can that candy munching freak be ???

[HaveCrowBarWillTravel]

That's something said in hindsight of course ;) No pun intended.

Kc.. NOT! LOL. His actions only prove what those of us in the W.D.W.A club have said since day one. Angel works best in tandem, but even then he's wishy washy. Once you get him moving, he's a good cat to have around, but....

I'll use Post Burt Rescue Angel as my examples here:

1. Angel/Kalani/Behemoth episode. Skittles pulled the trigger on the molotov while the two of them were doing their "Who's on First" bit. Kalani came up with the actual strategy. Angel came up with the idea only. Kalani killed the beast.

2. He didn't put his foot down when Lizzy was ejected. He played up the whole i'm hurt, I was tired thing. Man the Puk up! He had enough energy to come downstairs and inquire..... and, wasn't he TOLD by Burt to go back upstairs anyway??

3. The tower was in disarray in multiple areas. It wasn't clean anymore and Burt was having leadership style issues
Angel SHOULD have been Burt's "Grant" (as in Gen Grant). He let Burt flop around like a hooked Catfish on hot Mississippi asphalt.

4. Any person with one leadership pube on their nutts would have had a "Come to Jesus Meeting" with Steven about his derisive attitude. Stevie boy would had a very very clear understanding about his place and his mouth. You can also say that he'd be called out to the woodshed.. if you don't get that saying, how about this: He'd get his ass whooped.

Last, but not least.. dumbeldorf runs out the room and two people end up with lead poisoning.

I'm gonna sign off with this last thing: Wait till Michael hears about this..................

PS.. I waited until I was finished to tell you that W.D.W.A is:
We Don't Worship Angel. I'm not only a subscriber, I'm also the President. ROFL.

[Rock Daddy]

Eventually, I think there will be a point where Angel will lead. Whether, it's because of Michael's absence (or death), or a split-up of the Towerfolk. (ie: Two teams, but one group gets separated and needs Angel's leadership) Angel is smarter and tougher than you think... and I'm a member of the Angel fan club, so I've been brainwashed! hahaHAHAH!

[HaveCrowBarWillTravel]

The reason he has the position he has is because he has the military training. People in high ranking military positions always get judged by civilians, but if as you say he is making the right decisions from a military position then it shouldn't change the decisions that he makes or will have to make. There could come a time where his type of choices become critical to the survival of the tower.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
When you're ASSIGNED a duty, that is your DUTY! Take this as experience from someone who's been assigned to Entry Control Point duty at Weapons Storage Areas, guarded NUKES and classified planes. You DON'T leave your post just because an alarm goes off. It's called dereliction of duty. Angel should have got on one of the walkie Talkies and called someone or stuck his head out the door and yelled.

The person on watch isn't the first responder, he/she is the director of those forces.

The main fact is that he DIDN'T think. He was supposed to monitor the.. monitors and Pippin. What if there was another attack from the mallers and the Alarm was a diversion. He'd never know because he left the room. His reaction was, well, a reaction and not calculated thought.
Here's where there's another leadership failure. Overall, Mike will take responsibility of not instituting a checklist or an inter tower communication sytem

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In regards to leaving Hope without saying anything to her, would saying Hope stay here have made any difference? Then on the flip side, taking Hope with him could potentially have been more dangerous. Someone breaking in to get guns is not where you should take a blind girl. We still don't actually know what has happened down at the armory, there could be all hell breaking loose, and Hope staying in the guard room, even with a prisoner is safer. In fact that is probably the first place people will go when they come to check out the alarm.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
First thing is you NEVER leave a kid with a stranger. second thing is you NEVER leave a kid with a potentially dangerous stranger.
Third this is, Angel would have been in the best position to protect Hope if something was going down. I'm going to assume that Angel and the crew are constantly armed, so it'd be an even exchange IF it was the situation.
Angel should have locked the room (if he really felt he had to go) and had Hope tag along until he could have someone trust worthy watch her then ran off to the alarm.
Fourth thing is you don't run haphazard into a potentially dangerous situation. Panic causes more deaths than anything else in an emergency situation. Calm heads and measured steps are needed.

So, now Angel has to deal with the guilt of two possible deaths because reacted instead of taking action.

[Rock Daddy]

Kc.. NOT! LOL. His actions only prove what those of us in the W.D.W.A club have said since day one. Angel works best in tandem, but even then he's wishy washy. Once you get him moving, he's a good cat to have around, but....

I'll use Post Burt Rescue Angel as my examples here:

1. Angel/Kalani/Behemoth episode. Skittles pulled the trigger on the molotov while the two of them were doing their "Who's on First" bit. Kalani came up with the actual strategy. Angel came up with the idea only. Kalani killed the beast.

2. He didn't put his foot down when Lizzy was ejected. He played up the whole i'm hurt, I was tired thing. Man the Puk up! He had enough energy to come downstairs and inquire..... and, wasn't he TOLD by Burt to go back upstairs anyway??

3. The tower was in disarray in multiple areas. It wasn't clean anymore and Burt was having leadership style issues
Angel SHOULD have been Burt's "Grant" (as in Gen Grant). He let Burt flop around like a hooked Catfish on hot Mississippi asphalt.

4. Any person with one leadership pube on their nutts would have had a "Come to Jesus Meeting" with Steven about his derisive attitude. Stevie boy would had a very very clear understanding about his place and his mouth. You can also say that he'd be called out to the woodshed.. if you don't get that saying, how about this: He'd get his ass whooped.

Last, but not least.. dumbeldorf runs out the room and two people end up with lead poisoning.

I'm gonna sign off with this last thing: Wait till Michael hears about this..................

PS.. I waited until I was finished to tell you that W.D.W.A is:
We Don't Worship Angel. I'm not only a subscriber, I'm also the President. ROFL.

I must help defend ANGEL! So... Here's my answers to these issues Crowbar.

1) Angel showed bravery, and leadership, by putting his own life on the line and baiting away a 10ft tall carnivorous monster, so that the Tower could get the MRE's to survive. He put his troops ahead of himself.

2) Angel really WAS hurt when Lizzy was ejected... and he was possibly getting some action that night, so leave 'im alone. :)

3) Burt would not give up his command until he was ready, and after Lizzy left, he relinquished it. He became exhausted, and had Michael (original leader) not returned in time, he may have turned it over to Angel.

4) FYI: Even Michael "caved" to Steven when he pulled his whiny "I don't wanna guard Pippin" BS. Michael didn't ream him out or really give him shit about his attitude. Michael didn't even question Steven when he said he was gonna crack some heads, about Lizzy's ejection. He didn't do shit to Steven.

5) Obviously the Rat is a sneaky lil' SOB, and planned that whomever was on guard duty, would run to check Burt's armory, while they snuck in and shot Pippin. (AND we don't know that Hope's been Shot ;) ) They had this planned for anyone to run and check it out, but it just happened that Hope was left in the room to add to the dramatic suspense!

[kafu288]

If he was getting some action that night that actually would be several points against him for being the world's biggest douche and just ignoring what was happening. Burt turned the leadership over to Michael because he knew that the people wanted Michael to lead again. Go back and listen to that transition again. He acknowledged that he didn't have it in him to lead and he saw the people's allegiances changing

[HaveCrowBarWillTravel]

I must help defend ANGEL! So... Here's my answers to these issues Crowbar.

1) Angel showed bravery, and leadership, by putting his own life on the line and baiting away a 10ft tall carnivorous monster, so that the Tower could get the MRE's to survive. He put his troops ahead of himself.

2) Angel really WAS hurt when Lizzy was ejected... and he was possibly getting some action that night, so leave 'im alone. :)

3) Burt would not give up his command until he was ready, and after Lizzy left, he relinquished it. He became exhausted, and had Michael (original leader) not returned in time, he may have turned it over to Angel.

4) FYI: Even Michael "caved" to Steven when he pulled his whiny "I don't wanna guard Pippin" BS. Michael didn't ream him out or really give him shit about his attitude. Michael didn't even question Steven when he said he was gonna crack some heads, about Lizzy's ejection. He didn't do shit to Steven.

5) Obviously the Rat is a sneaky lil' SOB, and planned that whomever was on guard duty, would run to check Burt's armory, while they snuck in and shot Pippin. (AND we don't know that Hope's been Shot ;) ) They had this planned for anyone to run and check it out, but it just happened that Hope was left in the room to add to the dramatic suspense!

Rock, Rock, Rock... ok my man... where shall I start here?

1. Angel's bravery isn't an indication of anything other than him not dying in a dynamically fluid survival situation that he wasn't prepared to face. Skittles is the one who saved them. Skittles is the one who threw the molotov when Angel couldn't. Skittles fixed the car.
Kalani came up with the actual strategy on how to kill the Behemoth. Angel did what he had to do to survive the situation as it changed around him... barely. There was no leaderhip displayed in those episodes. Kalani didn't defer to him one time.

Here's the crux of leadership: People look to leaders for motivation. If anyone can give me ONE example of anyone looking to Angel or deferring to Angel. I'll STFU about his leadership skills.. er, lack thereof. LOL


2. I didn't say he wasn't really hurt. Here's the point i'm making. In the military, one of the first things you learn is to suck ish up! If you're injured, you acknowledge it, but keep moving. You never let being hurt become an excuse. He was in good enough shape to be wandering around to find out what happened. Mike has a broken arm. One that was wasn't even set. That's a real injury..not just "hurt" and he manned up time and time again with one good wing.
We've never heard that cat say he coudn't do something because of his injury.

3. Burt was tired of TRYING to lead way before the Lizzie thing went down. That was just the straw that broke the camels back. The disent had been brewing for a while. That's the only way Steven's ass could have polluted/influenced the situation.
He damn near french kissed Mike when he showed up alive.
Our boy Angel didn't do anything to help shoulder that burden. If i'm wrong, someone show me how he did please.

4. Mike didn't "Cave" in, he allowed butthead to stay busy, by changing posts. He would have caved if he had just let him not do anything. He simply rotated the posts.

Sir Rock.. thank you for the debate.. so in the words of Michael Buffer..... "Let's get it on!!"

[Rock Daddy]

Rock, Rock, Rock... ok my man... where shall I start here?

1. Angel's bravery isn't an indication of anything other than him not dying in a dynamically fluid survival situation that he wasn't prepared to face. Skittles is the one who saved them. Skittles is the one who threw the molotov when Angel couldn't. Skittles fixed the car.
Kalani came up with the actual strategy on how to kill the Behemoth. Angel did what he had to do to survive the situation as it changed around him... barely. There was no leaderhip displayed in those episodes. Kalani didn't defer to him one time.

Here's the crux of leadership: People look to leaders for motivation. If anyone can give me ONE example of anyone looking to Angel or deferring to Angel. I'll STFU about his leadership skills.. er, lack thereof. LOL


2. I didn't say he wasn't really hurt. Here's the point i'm making. In the military, one of the first things you learn is to suck ish up! If you're injured, you acknowledge it, but keep moving. You never let being hurt become an excuse. He was in good enough shape to be wandering around to find out what happened. Mike has a broken arm. One that was wasn't even set. That's a real injury..not just "hurt" and he manned up time and time again with one good wing.
We've never heard that cat say he coudn't do something because of his injury.

3. Burt was tired of TRYING to lead way before the Lizzie thing went down. That was just the straw that broke the camels back. The disent had been brewing for a while. That's the only way Steven's ass could have polluted/influenced the situation.
He damn near french kissed Mike when he showed up alive.
Our boy Angel didn't do anything to help shoulder that burden. If i'm wrong, someone show me how he did please.

4. Mike didn't "Cave" in, he allowed butthead to stay busy, by changing posts. He would have caved if he had just let him not do anything. He simply rotated the posts.

Sir Rock.. thank you for the debate.. so in the words of Michael Buffer..... "Let's get it on!!"

Aahh No!!! More valid points!!! Nooooo! LOL At least we can agree that Steven is a butthead.

[nikvoodoo]

The reason he has the position he has is because he has the military training. People in high ranking military positions always get judged by civilians, but if as you say he is making the right decisions from a military position then it shouldn't change the decisions that he makes or will have to make. There could come a time where his type of choices become critical to the survival of the tower.

In regards to leaving Hope without saying anything to her, would saying Hope stay here have made any difference? Then on the flip side, taking Hope with him could potentially have been more dangerous. Someone breaking in to get guns is not where you should take a blind girl. We still don't actually know what has happened down at the armory, there could be all hell breaking loose, and Hope staying in the guard room, even with a prisoner is safer. In fact that is probably the first place people will go when they come to check out the alarm.

And you'll note that when military personnel make decisions that outrage the public, they don't stay military personnel for much longer after that. They usually get buckled under the pressure of popular opinion and resign. So as the sophists go, so does public opinion. Doesn't matter if its right or wrong, it's all perception.

Again, if he just had that inkling of protect the child by making her hide, this topic stays buried 3 pages deep and someone else resurrects it. He left a 14 year old blind girl out in the open. I never said he should say stay here. I said he should tell the girl who is defenseless to hide.

I fail to understand how this is such a hard concept for people to latch on to. Leaving 14 year old blind girl left with a man you don't trust is not the way to protect a child, and it's really kinda odd that I have had to repeat that as a mantra over the last 12 hours. There's no defense for not even thinking about Hope's safety before you leave that room. Sorry. You'll never get me to budge on this issue.

And can I just mention how much this seems like the night time/day time shift? Crowbar and RD will cover the mornings and early afternoons, while Ra1th and I will handle afternoons to third shifts?

[Ra1th]

1. Angel/Kalani/Behemoth episode. Skittles pulled the trigger on the molotov while the two of them were doing their "Who's on First" bit. Kalani came up with the actual strategy. Angel came up with the idea only. Kalani killed the beast.

2. He didn't put his foot down when Lizzy was ejected. He played up the whole i'm hurt, I was tired thing. Man the Puk up! He had enough energy to come downstairs and inquire..... and, wasn't he TOLD by Burt to go back upstairs anyway??

3. The tower was in disarray in multiple areas. It wasn't clean anymore and Burt was having leadership style issues
Angel SHOULD have been Burt's "Grant" (as in Gen Grant). He let Burt flop around like a hooked Catfish on hot Mississippi asphalt.
.

ok i dont have time to answer all of these because there's too many posts to respond to but heres one thing, Angel did not support Burt's leadership. Angel wasn't teh second in command during that time. Angel was Michael's grant, not burt's. Burt's grant was pretty much Kalani. Burt used Angel fro tactics, and missions, thats a bout it.
shit

as for putting his foot down when lizzy was ejected, yeah he shouldnt have been asleep, but shit cut him some slack he just went through a building got cut up to hell and killed a behemoth. So in short, yes there are some kinks to work out, every character has these, no one is perfect, if they were all perfect they'd have no depth etc etc

[Ra1th]

If he was getting some action that night that actually would be several points against him for being the world's biggest douche and just ignoring what was happening. Burt turned the leadership over to Michael because he knew that the people wanted Michael to lead again. Go back and listen to that transition again. He acknowledged that he didn't have it in him to lead and he saw the people's allegiances changing

how is that ignoring what was happening? That was i'm gettin laid! oh shit somethings wrong! hey burt what's wrong? Burt: nothing's wrong Angel: cool, back to my lady. nothing douchey there

[Kn1ckerb0cker33]

I was waiting for Ra1th to jump on this =P

[nikvoodoo]

....I'm just curious how we're still talking about Angel getting laid when we know Riley wasn't in the room with him and was out having a smoke and that's why Lizzy didn't see her?

And you know....Riley is a lesbian. So....just sayin' :p

[Rock Daddy]

And can I just mention how much this seems like the night time/day time shift? Crowbar and RD will cover the mornings and early afternoons, while Ra1th and I will handle afternoons to third shifts?

LOL. This seems about right. We always need 1 member of each side on the clock at all times! ;)

[nikvoodoo]

LOL. This seems about right. We always need 1 member of each side on the clock at all times! ;)

Screw it!!! I can pull doubles all the time! Man up Rock Daddy!! :p

[Ra1th]

Nik, leaving a 14 year old girl alone in the guard room is not a mistake. THis is the most ridiculous statement I've heard from you EVER. If the armory was being raided, then FUCK the girl, because every soul in hte damn tower depends on the ammo in the armory.

Tell me this, in that situation there were two choices,

Leave the girl with tied up prisoner who's chained to a wall, and check who's stealing our ammo.

OR

when the alarm goes off in the armory, Hmmmm lets stay here instead, i'm sure SOMEONE ELSE WILL TAKE CARE OF IT. i'll just stay here and protect hope. if he had done that you would have come down harder on him for not hcecking out the goddamn armory.


You fail to understand why it is such a hard concept for people to latch on to? "leaving a 14 year old blind girl wiht a man you dont trust" Ok i'll tell you why. BECAUSE THE ARMORY IS BEING RAIDED. And here's another thing Nik, leaving hope with pippin DIDNT END UP KILLING HER. Pippin never so much as touched the girl. YOUR THEORY FAILS THERE. its over. Leaving hope with pippin is not the problem. Hope is not dead because Angel left her with pippin, and then pippin killed her. The rat assassinated her. SO blame the rat not pippin for hope's death. Angel was right in leaving her to check the armory

[Rock Daddy]

....I'm just curious how we're still talking about Angel getting laid when we know Riley wasn't in the room with him and was out having a smoke and that's why Lizzy didn't see her?

And you know....Riley is a lesbian. So....just sayin' :p

Maybe it wasn't Riley... Or maybe she went out for a quick "after-sex" smoke. And there's a lot of women that aren't B/W lesbian or straight. Maybe she's in the grey area and trying to figure her feelings out, and it's really tearing her up... LOL :D

[Ra1th]

....I'm just curious how we're still talking about Angel getting laid when we know Riley wasn't in the room with him and was out having a smoke and that's why Lizzy didn't see her?

And you know....Riley is a lesbian. So....just sayin' :p

shutup you have no proof

[Ra1th]

Crowbar, you want an example of ANgel's leadership?

During field missions, Angel is hte one in charge, and he does show leadership. During the MRE mission, Kalani deterred to him when they realized they were being hunted, Kalani turned to him when the behemoth appeared. With the mission at the arena, Datu and Riley turned to him when michael "died" , they turned to him when datu was captured. they turned to him on the mission to rescue datu.

Now I consider this to be damn good leadership. ANd if you disagree, then thats a difference of opinion that will NEVER be settled no matter how much debate goes into it. You're going into this with the mindset that the butterbar can never lead, And i'm going into this with the mindset that Angel can do no wrong. So we're at an impass

[Ra1th]

Ra1th,
I agree with much of what you say. From an unbiased, rational point of view, Angel probably did what he had to do by leaving his post to investigate the alarm. The problem is, once everyone finds out what happens and shit starts to hit the fan, people aren't going to be rational or unbiased. There is going to be panic and chaos. And Angel is going to end up with the blame.
Someone, most likely Michael among others will probably stick up for him eventually, but people are still going to blame Angel for what happened. And Angel will probably end up blaming himself to some degree also. It might not be fair but its going to happen. People are going to look for a scapegoat to blame for this, and until the culprit is found Angel (assuming he isn't the culprit himself) is the easiest scapegoat.
And this is what puts another nail in the "will Angel ever become leader of the Tower" question. This sort of thing just keeps happening to him. He gets blamed for things that aren't necessarily his fault. He makes rational decisions that turn out to bite him on the ass (wanting to leave Burt behind, wanting to not let Lizzie and her boyfriend in because it was too dangerous, etc...) These are the sorts of things that on paper seems rational but make people angry. And now people are going to see him as failing to save Pippin and Hope (if Hope was killed). People just aren't going to want him as leader if that's the way they see him. Is that fair? Absolutely not! But whoever said life was fair?

I don't think this is gonna be much of an issue in the long term. Hey after the war, Michael was hated by everyone because they felt that he lead them to war, and that he wasted all their supplies on zombie recon missions, But he still came back. this won't be good for him in the short run, but people will move on soon enough

[Pteranodon]

Amen, Ra1th! In the first few episodes Angel deferred to Michael cause he had battlefield experience in the real world. Well, I'd say Angel has plenty of battlefield experience now- everyone in the Tower's a 'steely-eyed missile man' by now...

I don't think he wants command, but if Michael were killed he'd have to accept the reins.

[Ra1th]

Amen, Ra1th! In the first few episodes Angel deferred to Michael cause he had battlefield experience in the real world. Well, I'd say Angel has plenty of battlefield experience now- everyone in the Tower's a 'steely-eyed missile man' by now...

I don't think he wants command, but if Michael were killed he'd have to accept the reins.

this brought tears to my eyes :D

[nikvoodoo]

Nik, leaving a 14 year old girl alone in the guard room is not a mistake. THis is the most ridiculous statement I've heard from you EVER. If the armory was being raided, then FUCK the girl, because every soul in hte damn tower depends on the ammo in the armory.

Tell me this, in that situation there were two choices,

Leave the girl with tied up prisoner who's chained to a wall, and check who's stealing our ammo.

OR

when the alarm goes off in the armory, Hmmmm lets stay here instead, i'm sure SOMEONE ELSE WILL TAKE CARE OF IT. i'll just stay here and protect hope. if he had done that you would have come down harder on him for not hcecking out the goddamn armory.


You fail to understand why it is such a hard concept for people to latch on to? "leaving a 14 year old blind girl wiht a man you dont trust" Ok i'll tell you why. BECAUSE THE ARMORY IS BEING RAIDED. And here's another thing Nik, leaving hope with pippin DIDNT END UP KILLING HER. Pippin never so much as touched the girl. YOUR THEORY FAILS THERE. its over. Leaving hope with pippin is not the problem. Hope is not dead because Angel left her with pippin, and then pippin killed her. The rat assassinated her. SO blame the rat not pippin for hope's death. Angel was right in leaving her to check the armory

I've just about had it with this argument with you. The fact that you're missing the larger point in this is really starting to annoy me on a level I can't even explain. Ignore Pippin. He's not in the room anymore and it's just Angel and Hope. When suddenly....an alarm goes off in the armory! "ZOMG WAT DO????WAT DO???" The fact that Angel's first instinct is to not protect the child in the room is the point. He runs off and leaves a child alone when there is something dangerous happening AND he does nothing to protect her. No hide here, go in there and sit tight. Nothing. He left a 14 year old to defend for herself when in your scenario, someone is stealing everything in the armory and could come out guns blazing unless Angel gets there first!

So with removing Pippin from the situation, can you finally see the issue? HE RAN OFF WITHOUT EVEN THINKING ABOUT THE CHILD'S SAFETY!. I do not understand how you can even try to defend that point. It's indefensible to not even acknowledge her existence at that moment.

Now, layer Pippin back in as a man no one trusts....*shrug* That's really all I have to say about it.

shutup you have no proof

Neither do you. At least I have Riley's words to back me up that she wasn't with Angel at that time. And Riley was in the hallway, you'd figure someone would note her going into Angel's room instead of her own.

[Ra1th]

I've just about had it with this argument with you. The fact that you're missing the larger point in this is really starting to annoy me on a level I can't even explain. Ignore Pippin. He's not in the room anymore and it's just Angel and Hope. When suddenly....an alarm goes off in the armory! "ZOMG WAT DO????WAT DO???" The fact that Angel's first instinct is to not protect the child in the room is the point. He runs off and leaves a child alone when there is something dangerous happening AND he does nothing to protect her. No hide here, go in there and sit tight. Nothing. He left a 14 year old to defend for herself when in your scenario, someone is stealing everything in the armory and could come out guns blazing unless Angel gets there first!

So with removing Pippin from the situation, can you finally see the issue? HE RAN OFF WITHOUT EVEN THINKING ABOUT THE CHILD'S SAFETY!. I do not understand how you can even try to defend that point. It's indefensible to not even acknowledge her existence at that moment.

Now, layer Pippin back in as a man no one trusts....*shrug* That's really all I have to say about it.



Oh and you wouldnt? you yourself said that you would do the same thing. You yourself said that anyone in the tower would do the same thing. He ran off wihtout thinking about the child's safety, she was safe. Pippin was not a threat to her. Pippin never touched her. No one could have predicted that the rat would come in and shoot up the place. So I would say he did think about her safety. he checked, hmm oh pippin is tied to a wall. ok, hope is relatively safe, Now i have bigger fish to fry, and he left to go check out the armory, which if it gets raided, EVERYONE IN THE TOWER SUFFERS and MANY will die



Yeah i can't back up that Riley is straight, doesn't mean that you can back up that she's gay, so we'll leave it at that.

[itsallgoodie]

why so many posts. the answer is no. just no.

[nikvoodoo]

Oh and you wouldnt? you yourself said that you would do the same thing. You yourself said that anyone in the tower would do the same thing. He ran off wihtout thinking about the child's safety, she was safe. Pippin was not a threat to her. Pippin never touched her. No one could have predicted that the rat would come in and shoot up the place. So I would say he did think about her safety. he checked, hmm oh pippin is tied to a wall. ok, hope is relatively safe, Now i have bigger fish to fry, and he left to go check out the armory, which if it gets raided, EVERYONE IN THE TOWER SUFFERS and MANY will die

I said I would check on the alarm, AFTER I told the defenseless child to hide.

Stop thinking about Pippin. Pippin is not the point of my argument, he and his untrustworthy-ness was just a factor of it. Maybe this is something you won't understand until you're closer to having children yourself but I'm going to lay it out for you one...last....time....and I'm going to do it without caps lock on because I want you to read it and not react to me screaming it.

Angel, your boy, left a 14 year old girl alone without giving her any instruction to hide herself because there was something dangerous happening down the hall. I'm not even saying Angel had to hold her hand and hide her in a closet. All he had to say was "Hope, hide!" Two words. If he had simply done that, nothing ever comes out of my mouth about this topic, and World War Angel stays at a cease fire. But he didn't. He ran out of the room without thinking of her once. That, to me, is reprehensible.


And the reason I brought up Riley in the way I did was to bring some levity to the argument :p

[Ra1th]

I said I would check on the alarm, AFTER I told the defenseless child to hide.

Stop thinking about Pippin. Pippin is not the point of my argument, he and his untrustworthy-ness was just a factor of it. Maybe this is something you won't understand until you're closer to having children yourself but I'm going to lay it out for you one...last....time....and I'm going to do it without caps lock on because I want you to read it and not react to me screaming it.

Angel, your boy, left a 14 year old girl alone without giving her any instruction to hide herself because there was something dangerous happening down the hall. I'm not even saying Angel had to hold her hand and hide her in a closet. All he had to say was "Hope, hide!" Two words. If he had simply done that, nothing ever comes out of my mouth about this topic, and World War Angel stays at a cease fire. But he didn't. He ran out of the room without thinking of her once. That, to me, is reprehensible.


And the reason I brought up Riley in the way I did was to bring some levity to the argument :p

Well if this is your last time saying it then I can just beat this point over your head a few more times and I don't have to expect a response :)

Stop thinking about pippin? Why? He is the basis of your argument, you say its his fault for leaving Hope in danger by leaving her wiht pippin. What other danger to her was there? No one could have predicted the shooter.

There was no threat to Hope when ANgel left her. There was no reason for him to tell her to hide. The tower was not under attack. THe armory was being raided. Under those circumstances, There was no reason to tell her to hide. You think that he should have told her to hide, because you have facts that we the audience have, and you have hindsight, things that Angel did not have. You also have time to think out your actions. Angel had none of these things. Angel was under pressure, THe girl was relatively safe from Pippin. The tower was not under attack. There was no perceived danger to Hope at the time. There was no reason to tell her to hide. If this is still "reprehensible" to you, then you are not able to see this clearly from the perspective of that character during that initial crisis. Now would it have been nice to tell the girl, hey i'll brb. and then take off? yeah but guess what? he had more pressing matters than the feelings of a 14 year old.

take a good look around you voodoo. There's not a soul here who supports your argument that he was wrong about not considering Hope's safety. Face it, you've lost.

[Rock Daddy]

Angel, your boy, left a 14 year old girl alone without giving her any instruction to hide herself because there was something dangerous happening down the hall. I'm not even saying Angel had to hold her hand and hide her in a closet. All he had to say was "Hope, hide!" Two words. If he had simply done that, nothing ever comes out of my mouth about this topic, and World War Angel stays at a cease fire. But he didn't. He ran out of the room without thinking of her once. That, to me, is reprehensible.

Maybe there was no where to hide, and it would have put Hope into more of a vulnerable situation to be crouched next to something. Also, Angel closed the door behind him when he rushes out, showing that he wanted to keep her safe, and doesn't want Hope to move from that spot. I don't think he expected her to go anywhere! Why kill time explaining that, when the thief could be getting away? (She's blind, not stupid. And a young adult) Just happens that there's a rat that likes to play dirty. Not his fault.

[nikvoodoo]

You obviously didn't read it so now I am going to scream it at you.

ANGEL LEFT A CHILD ALONE AND DEFENSELESS AND THAT IS A HORRIBLE THING TO DO AS A HUMAN BEING! WHAT MORE DO YOU NEED TO HEAR?

This has nothing to do with information I have that Angel doesn't. AN ALARM IS GOING OFF IN THE ARMORY AND YOU ARE SITTING IN THE ROOM WITH A 14 YEAR OLD GIRL WHO CAN'T DEFEND HERSELF! And you think that nothing bad might happen if someone is stealing weapons? "How could she possibly be in danger if someone is raiding the armory??!!" Are you serious???

If there was no threat at the time, why did Angel even have to leave? If it was just a simple robbery why run off so quickly? If there wasn't a threat, he should have sauntered down the hallway to inquire as to what was happening. There was danger, because he ran as fast as he could away. Your thoughts aren't matching Angel's actions right now.

Pippin has little to nothing to do with this argument. He was always just a qualifier for why Angel was wrong for leaving Hope alone in the room. The major point is he left Hope alone without giving her a second thought.

Talk to me in a few years when you are closer to having children yourself and tell me that what Angel did makes perfect sense.


Maybe there was no where to hide, and it would have put Hope into more of a vulnerable situation to be crouched next to something. Also, Angel closed the door behind him when he rushes out, showing that he wanted to keep her safe, and doesn't want Hope to move from that spot. I don't think he expected her to go anywhere! Why kill time explaining that, when the thief could be getting away? (She's blind, not stupid. And a young adult) Just happens that there's a rat that likes to play dirty. Not his fault.

The guard room is an apartment. There are places to hide. He may not have expected her to go anywhere, but you have to be clear. Especially to a teenager.

Two words. "Hope hide" the end. That's all that needed to happen. You're both telling me Angel can't spare enough breath for two words? really?

[Rock Daddy]

What would telling a Blind girl to hide really do for her? You think anyone would be able to predict that a killer would show up seconds after Angel ran away? I'll bet you that had Angel heard gunshots, and realized that there was an actual attack on the tower, he would have had her bunker down, and protected her. He simply went to check out an inside alarm. Remember, until now, nobody regarded ANY of the allies inside the Tower as murderers. Also, if they constantly lived under the idea that "anyone in the tower can be a murderer at anytime" or "any disturbance is an attack" they'd be all dead by now. I don't tell my son to run and hide everytime I hear a loud bang in the other room, until I investigate. However, if the entry door alarm to the WHOLE HOUSE sounded, THEN, I'd tell him to stay closed in a room, (OR I'D SHUT HIM IN), while I check down the hall and investigate.

[HaveCrowBarWillTravel]

Nik, Ra1th,

Ouch, Ouch, and OUCH! oh, and Rock.. huh? LOL

Ok, what i'm seing is a lot of "If's" and no concrete evidence. Angel showed a lack of threat assessment and Operational Risk Management by leaving Hope alone first off.
Pippin was considered a threat. So, you have your bird in the hand and the alarm as your bird in the bush. All threats are taken care of by priority or proximity. The closest threat was Pippin.
Someone may say that "oh, but in the end he was really a threat" That's conjecture to the highest degree. The facts are he wasn't trusted, he was to be watched and he wasn't to remain in that room. His "Unknown" status rules him as a threat until it's no longer deemed to be so.
That wasn't the case here. So, Angel making the mad dash off is pertinent. Poor RA, Poor ORM and poor situational awareness.

Rock says that "MAYBE" there was no place to hide? Why wouldnt' there be? They're on the 5th floor and there are plenty of rooms, plenty of other residents to take her. So, Hope's safety is the number one priority.

The ONLY reason to leave Hope in the room is IF there were an immediate threat in the hallway. There was none. There were no bullets flying, no bombs, no screaming. Angel had time to assess the situation then act on that. He didn't. He reacted.

The Armory being robbed is yet another IF and an attempt to give his actions credit. What we DO have is a simple alarm going off. Rats, water, faulty wires, Lady..any number of things could set off an alarm.

When your car alarm goes off in the middle of the night, do you rush into the street? Hell no! You look out the window first. That's a threat assessment. If you see somebody hanging around it or smashing in your windows... you either call the cops OR your arm yourself and take care of the threat.

If you and your old lady are sleep and the house alarm goes off, or the sound of breaking glass wakes you guys up, do you jump out the bed and run down stairs or do you tell your girl to stay there or hide in the bathroom? You look after her first then you grab your crowbar...eheheh (sorry, sorry.) and SLOWLY head out to investigate.

Angel didn't do any of that. It was a mad dash to see about an alarm. An alarm, not an actual incident. Add insult to injury, but Hope is BLIND! Let's say there was a break in into the armory, or there was an attack.. who's going to MAKE SURE Hope is safe? Pippin? Who's going to make sure Hope get's out the room if they need to evac?

You cats are acting like Burt had Nukes or bio weapons in there. A few M4's going missing doesn't equal the loss of life or lives that happened. I'll add this tid bit too, they're communication abilities are done now.
That places them is such a vulnerable spot it's ridiculous. They have no way to gather information from the field.

Ra1th, Charisma is an inate ability to manipulate people into doing things. It's charm/appeal. Ok, I'm outty. Can't hang. I have one star to take to the airport. I'll catch you cats on the flipside.

[Rock Daddy]

Nik, Ra1th,

Ouch, Ouch, and OUCH! oh, and Rock.. huh? LOL

Ok, what i'm seing is a lot of "If's" and no concrete evidence. Angel showed a lack of threat assessment and Operational Risk Management by leaving Hope alone first off.
Pippin was considered a threat. So, you have your bird in the hand and the alarm as your bird in the bush. All threats are taken care of by priority or proximity. The closest threat was Pippin.
Someone may say that "oh, but in the end he was really a threat" That's conjecture to the highest degree. The facts are he wasn't trusted, he was to be watched and he wasn't to remain in that room. His "Unknown" status rules him as a threat until it's no longer deemed to be so.
That wasn't the case here. So, Angel making the mad dash off is pertinent. Poor RA, Poor ORM and poor situational awareness.

Rock says that "MAYBE" there was no place to hide? Why wouldnt' there be? They're on the 5th floor and there are plenty of rooms, plenty of other residents to take her. So, Hope's safety is the number one priority.

The ONLY reason to leave Hope in the room is IF there were an immediate threat in the hallway. There was none. There were no bullets flying, no bombs, no screaming. Angel had time to assess the situation then act on that. He didn't. He reacted.

The Armory being robbed is yet another IF and an attempt to give his actions credit. What we DO have is a simple alarm going off. Rats, water, faulty wires, Lady..any number of things could set off an alarm.

When your car alarm goes off in the middle of the night, do you rush into the street? Hell no! You look out the window first. That's a threat assessment. If you see somebody hanging around it or smashing in your windows... you either call the cops OR your arm yourself and take care of the threat.

If you and your old lady are sleep and the house alarm goes off, or the sound of breaking glass wakes you guys up, do you jump out the bed and run down stairs or do you tell your girl to stay there or hide in the bathroom? You look after her first then you grab your crowbar...eheheh (sorry, sorry.) and SLOWLY head out to investigate.

Angel didn't do any of that. It was a mad dash to see about an alarm. An alarm, not an actual incident. Add insult to injury, but Hope is BLIND! Let's say there was a break in into the armory, or there was an attack.. who's going to MAKE SURE Hope is safe? Pippin? Who's going to make sure Hope get's out the room if they need to evac?

You cats are acting like Burt had Nukes or bio weapons in there. A few M4's going missing doesn't equal the loss of life or lives that happened. I'll add this tid bit too, they're communication abilities are done now.
That places them is such a vulnerable spot it's ridiculous. They have no way to gather information from the field.

Ra1th, Charisma is an inate ability to manipulate people into doing things. It's charm/appeal. Ok, I'm outty. Can't hang. I have one star to take to the airport. I'll catch you cats on the flipside.

Crowbar, I think you've managed to clear up some sloppy thinking on both parts here. As for me, I think I'm just not making sense to anyone now, so I'm out until next time.

PS: Angel can still be the Tower leader (Original Thread Topic)

[nikvoodoo]

Crowbar, I think you've managed to clear up some sloppy thinking on both parts here. As for me, I think I'm just not making sense to anyone now, so I'm out until next time.

PS: Angel can still be the Tower leader (Original Thread Topic)

....original thread topic......oooooooh yeah.......

No. No he can't....mainly because we're about to leave the Tower and he'll never be able to lead it! BAM! SEMANTICS! :p

[Ra1th]

Nik, Ra1th,

Ouch, Ouch, and OUCH! oh, and Rock.. huh? LOL

Ok, what i'm seing is a lot of "If's" and no concrete evidence. Angel showed a lack of threat assessment and Operational Risk Management by leaving Hope alone first off.
Pippin was considered a threat. So, you have your bird in the hand and the alarm as your bird in the bush. All threats are taken care of by priority or proximity. The closest threat was Pippin.
Someone may say that "oh, but in the end he was really a threat" That's conjecture to the highest degree. The facts are he wasn't trusted, he was to be watched and he wasn't to remain in that room. His "Unknown" status rules him as a threat until it's no longer deemed to be so.
That wasn't the case here. So, Angel making the mad dash off is pertinent. Poor RA, Poor ORM and poor situational awareness.

Rock says that "MAYBE" there was no place to hide? Why wouldnt' there be? They're on the 5th floor and there are plenty of rooms, plenty of other residents to take her. So, Hope's safety is the number one priority.

The ONLY reason to leave Hope in the room is IF there were an immediate threat in the hallway. There was none. There were no bullets flying, no bombs, no screaming. Angel had time to assess the situation then act on that. He didn't. He reacted.

The Armory being robbed is yet another IF and an attempt to give his actions credit. What we DO have is a simple alarm going off. Rats, water, faulty wires, Lady..any number of things could set off an alarm.

When your car alarm goes off in the middle of the night, do you rush into the street? Hell no! You look out the window first. That's a threat assessment. If you see somebody hanging around it or smashing in your windows... you either call the cops OR your arm yourself and take care of the threat.

If you and your old lady are sleep and the house alarm goes off, or the sound of breaking glass wakes you guys up, do you jump out the bed and run down stairs or do you tell your girl to stay there or hide in the bathroom? You look after her first then you grab your crowbar...eheheh (sorry, sorry.) and SLOWLY head out to investigate.

Angel didn't do any of that. It was a mad dash to see about an alarm. An alarm, not an actual incident. Add insult to injury, but Hope is BLIND! Let's say there was a break in into the armory, or there was an attack.. who's going to MAKE SURE Hope is safe? Pippin? Who's going to make sure Hope get's out the room if they need to evac?

You cats are acting like Burt had Nukes or bio weapons in there. A few M4's going missing doesn't equal the loss of life or lives that happened. I'll add this tid bit too, they're communication abilities are done now.
That places them is such a vulnerable spot it's ridiculous. They have no way to gather information from the field.

Ra1th, Charisma is an inate ability to manipulate people into doing things. It's charm/appeal. Ok, I'm outty. Can't hang. I have one star to take to the airport. I'll catch you cats on the flipside.

Burt might not have nukes in there, but do you remember how devastating it was the last time the armory was raided? the Tower lost all of their ammo, and then had to fight the mallers wihtout ammo, and subsequently they lost a number of lives in that attack. So yes the ammo room is absolutely the priority over protecting the blind girl from the prisoner who's chained to a wall.

Who's going to "MAKE SURE" Hope is safe? safe from what? what's the threat? the hypothetical assault on the tower? when angel ran out of the room, he had no reason to believe that Hope was in any danger.

Once again crowbar, we have hindsight on this issue, you're blaming Angel for going after the armory instead of guarding hope. At that point in time, Angel had reason to believe the armory was being raided, and he had no reason to believe that Hope was in any danger. Could he have told hope that he'd be right back? yeah sure that would be nice, but surely you realize that in times of crisis or when there's heavy pressure on you sometimes people make small mistakes, this was a small thing that he forgot to do, Even if he told her to hide that wouldnt have done her any good, she's blind, she cant do that by herself. If he had taken the time to hide her before he left, then the raider of the armory woulda gotten away. Also what reason did he have to hide her? he had none, there was no threat to hope. there was no reason to hide her. Had angel NOT gone after the armory I'm sure you would have bashed him for that too, oh he fails as a leader because he wants other people to do his job for him.

[Ra1th]

....original thread topic......oooooooh yeah.......

No. No he can't....mainly because we're about to leave the Tower and he'll never be able to lead it! BAM! SEMANTICS! :p

bet you anything we wont be leaving the tower anytime soon, too much shit is in LA. Ink, ground zero, Lizzy (burt and saul aren't leaving without here) they aint leavin till at least the next season imo

[Ra1th]

You obviously didn't read it so now I am going to scream it at you.

ANGEL LEFT A CHILD ALONE AND DEFENSELESS AND THAT IS A HORRIBLE THING TO DO AS A HUMAN BEING! WHAT MORE DO YOU NEED TO HEAR?

This has nothing to do with information I have that Angel doesn't. AN ALARM IS GOING OFF IN THE ARMORY AND YOU ARE SITTING IN THE ROOM WITH A 14 YEAR OLD GIRL WHO CAN'T DEFEND HERSELF! And you think that nothing bad might happen if someone is stealing weapons? "How could she possibly be in danger if someone is raiding the armory??!!" Are you serious???

If there was no threat at the time, why did Angel even have to leave? If it was just a simple robbery why run off so quickly? If there wasn't a threat, he should have sauntered down the hallway to inquire as to what was happening. There was danger, because he ran as fast as he could away. Your thoughts aren't matching Angel's actions right now.

Pippin has little to nothing to do with this argument. He was always just a qualifier for why Angel was wrong for leaving Hope alone in the room. The major point is he left Hope alone without giving her a second thought.

Talk to me in a few years when you are closer to having children yourself and tell me that what Angel did makes perfect sense.



The guard room is an apartment. There are places to hide. He may not have expected her to go anywhere, but you have to be clear. Especially to a teenager.

Two words. "Hope hide" the end. That's all that needed to happen. You're both telling me Angel can't spare enough breath for two words? really?

if it was a simple robbery, why leave? because he needed to catch the culprit, that's why he would leave.

And i think rock daddy just pwnd your telling hope to hid argument

hope didn't need to defend herself, she wasn't in danger.

[nikvoodoo]

bet you anything we wont be leaving the tower anytime soon, too much shit is in LA. Ink, ground zero, Lizzy (burt and saul aren't leaving without here) they aint leavin till at least the next season imo

Yeah, you're probably right, but all that said I'd love it to happen just to claim (the most hollow via semantics) victory ever! :p

if it was a simple robbery, why leave? because he needed to catch the culprit, that's why he would leave.

And i think rock daddy just pwnd your telling hope to hid argument

hope didn't need to defend herself, she wasn't in danger.
And I'm pretty sure Crowbar schooled all of us, and explicitly pointed out how and why she was in Danger.

[Leedo2502]

Far be it from me to keep defending Angel but if the shit goes down I'm not going to be worried about the 14 yo blind girl. I am going to secure the Armory and on the way I'm grabbing someone and sending them to the guard room and then grabbing someone to back me up. Angel did the right thing in my book

[Ra1th]

Yeah, you're probably right, but all that said I'd love it to happen just to claim (the most hollow via semantics) victory ever! :p

And I'm pretty sure Crowbar schooled all of us, and explicitly pointed out how and why she was in Danger.

I'm still not seeing why she was in any danger, she was in a room with a prisoner, who was chained to a wall. no danger there. Yeah if a zombie attack happened, she's screwed but thats about it.

[cupcakezombie]

And can I just mention how much this seems like the night time/day time shift? Crowbar and RD will cover the mornings and early afternoons, while Ra1th and I will handle afternoons to third shifts?

Thanks Nik, way to just out and out discount my input. jk :p

[nikvoodoo]

Thanks Nik, way to just out and out discount my input. jk :p

*checking roster* Oh damn. So sorry! Everyone please excuse the oversight of our newest Angel Hater/Supporter staff member. ;)

[Rock Daddy]

*checking roster* Oh damn. So sorry! Everyone please excuse the oversight of our newest Angel Hater/Supporter staff member. ;)

LOL There should be titles.

[Ra1th]

That can be arranged

[cupcakezombie]

Can I be Chief in Charge of Distraction Techniques (ie I post to fill in time while the big boys are away)?

[Ra1th]

done and done

[cupcakezombie]

Thanks, Ra1th!
So Nik if you want to talk semantics, technically, Angel has already taken control of the tower at the start, so isn't this game over.
Unless you want to change the name to 'Will Angel Ever Take Control of the Tower Again', Angel wins. :)

[nikvoodoo]

Thanks, Ra1th!
So Nik if you want to talk semantics, technically, Angel has already taken control of the tower at the start, so isn't this game over.
Unless you want to change the name to 'Will Angel Ever Take Control of the Tower Again', Angel wins. :)

hoisted by my own petard. :p Damn semantics biting me in the ass...... I could argue that he never fully had control of the tower because everyone followed Michael and not him, but that's not worth rehashing.

So we'll just say the thread title needs to get edited and leave it at that. Something along the lines of "Will Angel ever actually be the leader of the Tower?";)

[Don Man]

I love angel but Michael is a natural leader

[nikvoodoo]

So did you all listen to that Walking Dead podcast episode that mentions WA?

"Angel is inexperienced and wants to lead, but he's kind of a fuck up." (inaccurate quote because I deleted the podcast and don't want to redownload it)

Even people who haven't listened to the entire show and independent of this forum know Angel is no leader.

Just. Sayin'.

[kafu288]

Some people are natual born leaders, some people aren't. There's a reason Michael is Harry and Angel is Ron you know...

[Rock Daddy]

Don't forget... It's not about who's a better leader right now. It's about if Angel will ever be the leader, or has what it takes to be a leader. Don't forget: Even f*ing Marcus was a leader of a colony MUCH bigger - and he was a complete tool. Just saying... Angel can do it. ;)

[HaveCrowBarWillTravel]

how is that ignoring what was happening? That was i'm gettin laid! oh shit somethings wrong! hey burt what's wrong? Burt: nothing's wrong Angel: cool, back to my lady. nothing douchey there

Wait. Wait. Wait.. Bruh, the post above this one (where you quoted me) you said for me to give him some slack because he'd just been through hell and killed a behemoth (actually Kalani did), but here you're saying it's cool and he's actually not so hurt as to be cool getting him "SOME."
So.. he's not That hurt to engage in some rigorous physical Bump and Grind, but he's too hurt to wander down the stairs and engage (as a "Leader") in what's happening in the tower. Is that correct?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"how is that ignoring what was happening? That was i'm gettin laid! oh shit somethings wrong! hey burt what's wrong? Burt: nothing's wrong Angel: cool, back to my lady. nothing douchey there"

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'll sum it up:

1. Angel is too wounded to step up so it's cool that he goes back to sleep
2. Angel isn't too wounded to get some ass

[HaveCrowBarWillTravel]

so did you all listen to that walking dead podcast episode that mentions wa?

"angel is inexperienced and wants to lead, but he's kind of a fuck up." (inaccurate quote because i deleted the podcast and don't want to redownload it)

even people who haven't listened to the entire show and independent of this forum know angel is no leader.

Just. Sayin'.

rofl!!

[HaveCrowBarWillTravel]

Thanks, Ra1th!
So Nik if you want to talk semantics, technically, Angel has already taken control of the tower at the start, so isn't this game over.
Unless you want to change the name to 'Will Angel Ever Take Control of the Tower Again', Angel wins. :)

Wait! Huh? When? How?

[HaveCrowBarWillTravel]

Burt might not have nukes in there, but do you remember how devastating it was the last time the armory was raided? the Tower lost all of their ammo, and then had to fight the mallers wihtout ammo, and subsequently they lost a number of lives in that attack. So yes the ammo room is absolutely the priority over protecting the blind girl from the prisoner who's chained to a wall.

Who's going to "MAKE SURE" Hope is safe? safe from what? what's the threat? the hypothetical assault on the tower? when angel ran out of the room, he had no reason to believe that Hope was in any danger.

Once again crowbar, we have hindsight on this issue, you're blaming Angel for going after the armory instead of guarding hope. At that point in time, Angel had reason to believe the armory was being raided, and he had no reason to believe that Hope was in any danger. Could he have told hope that he'd be right back? yeah sure that would be nice, but surely you realize that in times of crisis or when there's heavy pressure on you sometimes people make small mistakes, this was a small thing that he forgot to do, Even if he told her to hide that wouldnt have done her any good, she's blind, she cant do that by herself. If he had taken the time to hide her before he left, then the raider of the armory woulda gotten away. Also what reason did he have to hide her? he had none, there was no threat to hope. there was no reason to hide her. Had angel NOT gone after the armory I'm sure you would have bashed him for that too, oh he fails as a leader because he wants other people to do his job for him.

Man,
I'm going to have my own page of comments after this.
I see that you can't see the danger presented. There's an emotional attachment now, so it's like talking religion or politics now.
I'm not using hindsight. My original thought when Angel ran from the room was WTF! I was expecting Pippen to throttle Hope.
Secondly, I used my experience from my time a cop in the USAF. I'm/was BISS certified (Base Installation Security Systems) which means watching a monitor bank that's linked to storage units containing Nukes, perimeter fences, buildings and coordinating responders during any perimeter breach or ALARM. Same system they used in Nuclear reactors in the mid 90's
So, it's not hindsight i'm employing.
I won't go over what I've already said because it's not soaking in. That's cool. We all are entitled to our opinions.
I will comment on the part where you say Angel wouldn't catch a break from me no matter which way he went (paraphrasing you).
That's where you're incorret. I don't think he should have left in the first place. You never "React" to a situation. You always "Act" to one.

[nikvoodoo]

Wait! Huh? When? How?
Cupcake is talking about in the very beginning when Michael deferred to Angel before he left for the supply mission in Chapter 2(The one where they found Burt). So Angel was in charge of the Tower for.....less than 2 chapters....which equates out to 4 chapter parts because 1-1 didn't involve the Tower at all.

[HaveCrowBarWillTravel]

Cupcake is talking about in the very beginning when Michael deferred to Angel before he left for the supply mission in Chapter 2(The one where they found Burt). So Angel was in charge of the Tower for.....less than 2 chapters....which equates out to 4 chapter parts because 1-1 didn't involve the Tower at all.

um.. sure. Ok. that's called delegating... but ok.

[cupcakezombie]

um.. sure. Ok. that's called delegating... but ok.

I posted this because Nik had said that they would leave the tower so Angel would never be in charge, so I said that early on Michael did say that Angel was in charge (due to rank) so technically the thread has already been resolved.
Was just part of my distraction techniques.

[HaveCrowBarWillTravel]

I posted this because Nik had said that they would leave the tower so Angel would never be in charge, so I said that early on Michael did say that Angel was in charge (due to rank) so technically the thread has already been resolved.
Was just part of my distraction techniques.

LOL.. that's why they issue thermal imagers. Too see through smoke screens! I'm not Angel. I don't get distracted. ROFL!

[yarri]

So did you all listen to that Walking Dead podcast episode that mentions WA?

"Angel is inexperienced and wants to lead, but he's kind of a fuck up." (inaccurate quote because I deleted the podcast and don't want to redownload it)

Even people who haven't listened to the entire show and independent of this forum know Angel is no leader.

Just. Sayin'.

I have to step in and disagree with you Nik, I had meant to read the entire thread but this post stopped me. Angel can be a leader.. he has shown leadership skills.. he is rough but he is learning and learning fast. To back up my statement I must direct you to the fact that Angel has lead multiple parties out of the tower on missions, some of them simple supply runs some of them dangerous such as his little trip with Kalani. He saved Kalani's life by not abandoning him. Kalani didn't lead that mission Angel did. He earned the right to lead and the respect of Kalani on his own.
The reasons why he didn't take control of the tower were limited to one thing and one thing only, experience. If something happens to Michael again I see Angel actually being skilled enough now to step into Michael's very very large shoes and keeping the place afloat and people not dead or turned.
I'll end this with a memory of my mother's 2nd husband he was a 2 tour Viet Nam vet and did his tours on the door gun of a helo where the life expectancy of one of these guys was under a minute in a fire fight. He told me that you could always tell who the best officers were you know the ones you would follow into battle. They were the guys who as butter bar Lt's had listened to and followed the direction of their more experience battle tested platoon sargent.

[yarri]

14. Blind. Girl. There's a difference between her and an adult. To an adult, he's not a security risk. Were you capable of fighting off a determined adult at the age of 14? While blindfolded so you couldn't see them coming? Look, I'm not a parent, but leaving a handicapped child alone with a man nobody trusts to me, reeks to high heaven.

And I think you make as many assumption to think he isn't capable of doing anything just because he's chained to the wall (or bedframe depending on what you want to believe). In fact, I even helped debunk my own dastardly theory because I saw the artwork. The SFX lead me to believe it's an actual chain and not handcuffs, but that's neither here nor there.

Ok, reality check. What has more importance in the grand scheme of things in this sort of situation? A blind 14 year old girl who can not ever be a fully functional member of the group, who will be dependent on food and shelter and protection FOREVER or the weapons and lives of the "functional" members of the tower? Mother nature is a bitch gentlemen as much as we do not like to see it or believe it folks like Hope will not survive in a future situation like this.

Hope is dead either way by the bullet of the assassin or by her own blindness if the tower falls.




There are still people who don't know if he's a maller or not (Steven) there are those who want to let him loose back into LA (Victor), and Michael can't make heads or tails of it because his mind frame is/has shifted since his time in the colony. Scratch's words be damned, Michael's words are you aren't to let Pippin out of your sight and he's not to be left alone. Angel failed to follow orders. And I'll just go ahead and make your point for you because I know you think I think Michael is perfect: Michael is at fault for leaving the guard as a single person shift.

There are not enough people in the tower for a 2 man shift. Folks got to eat, sleep, and do other things to keep the grand old tower functional.




Thief dead. Angel hero, and a 14 year old blind girl isn't left alone with a man nobody trusts.

Again I refer to the above statement. Is the life of one 14 year old blind girl more valued in this current situation then the lives of the physically fit and able?
I'll put this into perspective you might understand. We will use the Titanic's history for this example:
After the launching of the few life boats and the ship went down there were hundreds of people in the freezing cold water drowning and dying. The life boats had the option to come back and pick up survivors and do the "humane thing" and instead they waited over an hour to do so.. why you ask?

When this disaster went to the senate hearings 5th officer Harold Lowe of the Titanic was questioned why he waited so long to go back

(Harold Lowe was in-charge of the only boat to go back for survivors for historical reference ) He waited over an hour to go back for survivors . His reasoning was that he had the responsibility for the lives with him in the boat. Had he gone back for survivors the lives in the boat would have been lost by the boat being swarmed by the 1000's of people in the water. He made a choice to save the survivors he had with him rather then lose all of them and save no one.

Get it? Being a leader means you make the shitty choices. Angel made the shitty choice by leaving Hope but in his head he was trying to help the tower survive. The sign of a leader.

[HaveCrowBarWillTravel]

Holy Cow Yarri. I didn't expect that from you. I'm gonna respect ere'bodies thoughts here because it's like the Hatflields and the McCoys up in this joint.

I will say that this thread can be used as a good Psychology case study in Man's nature. Like "Lord of the Flies."

[nikvoodoo]

Look, once again: I, you, everyone in this place would have gone to check on the alarm. But once again, my point is he didn't even consider Hope before he left. He ran off. How hard is it to say anything to her as he's leaving the room?

I don't actually expect him to stay in the room, I presented that as another option available to him albeit a bad one. Angel did make the right decision to check on the alarm. He made the wrong choice by not even acknowledging Hope's existence when he left her.

And the reason I brought up what The Walking Dead podcast said was for a bit of levity. They were talking about the first three chapters, when I think most of us can agree Angel was incapable of leading. Had they listened to the whole show, they might have a different opinion. Sorry if it wasn't clear I was joking.

[j0be]

Look, once again: I, you, everyone in this place would have gone to check on the alarm. But once again, my point is he didn't even consider Hope before he left. He ran off. How hard is it to say anything to her as he's leaving the room?

I don't actually expect him to stay in the room, I presented that as another option available to him albeit a bad one. Angel did make the right decision to check on the alarm. He made the wrong choice by not even acknowledging Hope's existence when he left her.

And the reason I brought up what The Walking Dead podcast said was for a bit of levity. They were talking about the first three chapters, when I think most of us can agree Angel was incapable of leading. Had they listened to the whole show, they might have a different opinion. Sorry if it wasn't clear I was joking.

I don't think Angel is a good leader in most instances either, I just want to hop in and say the alarm may only register in the surveillance office. So it may have been that Angel was really the only one to respond. Whether he should have taken Hope or not is really my question. He didn't know what was happening to cause the alarm to go off, so maybe Angel thought the safest place for her was in the surveillance room. At least there he knew Pippin was chained up.

[mascaria]

Naw the alarm got louder when he opened the door so it wasn't a control room only alarm.

[COsurvivor]

Only way he can lead is if he had some "Stormtroopers" behind him like they have in The Colony.

[Zombiehead]

I didn't read every post in this thread but I'll comment on what I did read... I don't fault Angel for not saying "I'll be right back" or "Stay here!" or something along those lines to Hope. If anything we'd assume she'd stay put and be safe anyway. When the alarm went off in Chapter 11.3, Michael didn't say anything to Pegs, and she's his love interest! I felt it was a natural reaction for someone whose used to bolting into action at a moments notice. Does it make him any less worthy of running things? Nope. Is he worthy of leading the Tower? Nope.

[nikvoodoo]

When the alarm went off in Chapter 11.3, Michael didn't say anything to Pegs, and she's his love interest!

Pegs is an adult. Hope is a 14 year old girl. Children need to be instructed to do things or they run around like chickens with their heads cut off.

Now Yarri.......

I've been debating if I was going to respond directly to your post or not....and obviously I've decided to or no one would be reading this....except mind readers.....get out of my head now or I'll start to imagine a nude Rush Limbaugh oil wrestling with a kangaroo to harass you. That's not a warning, it's a threat. :p


Ok, reality check. What has more importance in the grand scheme of things in this sort of situation? A blind 14 year old girl who can not ever be a fully functional member of the group, who will be dependent on food and shelter and protection FOREVER or the weapons and lives of the "functional" members of the tower? Mother nature is a bitch gentlemen as much as we do not like to see it or believe it folks like Hope will not survive in a future situation like this.

Once again, You/I/everyone agrees Angel made the right decision to leave Hope and go check the alarm. In my first or second post regarding this topic, I said I would do the same thing: Check the Alarm. This is not the point in dispute. The point in dispute is leaving the kid alone without acknowledging her in any way before he left. Listen to her voice when she realizes she's alone in the room with Pippin. Sounds pretty terrified. He left the room without saying a word to a frightened child. I, as everyone knows by now, think that's pretty shitty and not something a responsible adult should do. And I think it lends itself to the larger point I have against Angel leading in a post apocalyptic world: He still does not seem to view people as people, he still views them as commodities. And I do not think that flies in a demilitarized society.


Hope is dead either way by the bullet of the assassin or by her own blindness if the tower falls.
Oh come on, she survived a 30 foot fall before. How much harder can it be to survive a 50 foot fall.....[/tongue removed from cheek] ;)

There are not enough people in the tower for a 2 man shift. Folks got to eat, sleep, and do other things to keep the grand old tower functional.

Well quite honestly with the amount of crap that has gone down (Kelly/Lizzy falling asleep, a thief stealing just about everything, the Tower betrayed, two guards attempting to run away and dying for it, Angel duped into leaving the room for the assassin...) I'd think it should be a pretty high priority to figure out how to rotate 2 people on guard duty because obviously one man shifts aren't cutting it.


Again I refer to the above statement. Is the life of one 14 year old blind girl more valued in this current situation then the lives of the physically fit and able?
I'll put this into perspective you might understand. We will use the Titanic's history for this example...

...When this disaster went to the senate hearings 5th officer Harold Lowe of the Titanic was questioned why he waited so long to go back

(Harold Lowe was in-charge of the only boat to go back for survivors for historical reference ) He waited over an hour to go back for survivors . His reasoning was that he had the responsibility for the lives with him in the boat. Had he gone back for survivors the lives in the boat would have been lost by the boat being swarmed by the 1000's of people in the water. He made a choice to save the survivors he had with him rather then lose all of them and save no one.

To which I respond with a quote from the British Inquiry's Final Report (http://www.titanicinquiry.org/BOTInq/BOTReport/BOTRepBoats.php):

I heard much evidence as to the conduct of the boats after the "Titanic" sank and when there must have been many struggling people in the water, and I regret to say that in my opinion some, at all events, of the boats failed to attempt to save lives when they might have done so, and might have done so successfully. This was particularly the case of boat No. 1. (Hendrickson, 5011) (Symons, 11501, 11527) It may reasonably have been thought that the risk of making the attempt was too great; but it seems to me that if the attempt had been made by some of these boats it might have been the means of saving a few more lives.

Your Titanic anecdote is one I already know being the history geek that I am. And just to clarify: as Boat 14 was waiting for the screams to die down there was a volunteer crew of 7 people including Lowe. He dropped off his survivors in other life boats.

And I think it's actually very interesting your choosing Harold Lowe, because while he was out searching for bodies, he came upon a "Japanese" man who was apparently dead lashed to a frail raft, and said "What's the use? He's dead, likely, and if he isn't there's others better worth saving than a Jap." and he turned the boat away from the man. He eventually changed his mind, turned around, pulled the man aboard, and after he was revived the "Japanese" man quickly regained all his strength to the point he pushed an exhausted oar-man out of his seat and took over for him, prompting Lowe to state: "By jove, I'm ashamed of what I said about the little blighter. I'd save the likes o' him six times over, if I got the chance." (account from Charlotte Collyer) (http://www.encyclopedia-titanica.org/titanic-biography/harold-godfrey-lowe.html). Turns out the dude was most likely a Chinese sailor named Fang Lang (http://www.encyclopedia-titanica.org/chinese-sailors-titanic.html)

Does this story sound familiar? The only thing missing is a shipsman named Saul yelling at him to turn around and go back to sound exactly like Angel/Saul/Burt in chapter 3. Knowing how history gets remembered (and hearing some other stories of Lowe's temper including the firing of shots from his lifeboat horizontally down the Titanic as it was being lowered), I'd bet the others in the boat did yell at him to turn back. But that's just an assumption and the reason why he turned back is lost to history.

Since we're talking about the Titanic, do you how many of the 3rd Class citizens died? The ones left to fend for themselves below decks? 75%. Only the crew lost a larger percentage and that was 76%. Do you recall Captain Stanley Lord of the SS Californian and his horrific botch job recognizing distress calls when informed of them by his Master at the helm? Both the US and British inquiries had scathing reports aimed at Stanley Lord and his inaction on that night which cost people their lives. The Californian, not the Carpathia should have been the first boat on the scene as they had been in contact and were closer to the Titanic.

I find it ironic you chose to illustrate leadership with an example of some of the worst leadership in the history of maritime disasters. Yes, Harold Lowe sticks out as an absolute hero, but both the U.S. and British Inquires agreed that there was a distinct lack of leadership and organization shown during the alerting and evacuation process of the passengers by the crew of the Titanic in addition to the royal screw up by the Californian cost lives.

It may be shitty to make decisions as a leader, but when you make a shitty decision, people can and will judge you for it. Right or wrong.

And just to be crystal clear: I do not care who was with Hope at the time. Regardless of who it was, if they acted in the exact way Angel did, they get this reaction from me. It just so happened to be Angel. And this is arguably the fourth time he's done something like this. Seems to be a pattern is all I'm saying.

[Zombiehead]

Pegs is an adult. Hope is a 14 year old girl. Children need to be instructed to do things or they run around like chickens with their heads cut off.
And what instructions could he give to a blind girl that doesn't know her way around the Tower yet? Tommy was around the same age and not once did I hear him go cluck.

[bequita]

Will Angel ever be a true leader in the Tower?

He's a pretty good Beta[besides obviously terrible decisions, he handles instructions well and can figure out problems on a small scale well]. Can we leave it at that? Why does everyone have to be a leader?

Too many chefs in the kitchen isn't going to make the spoiled carrots taste any better.

[ilanagl]

Pegs would be a better leader

[Ryan]

Maybe it's time to go with something a little more democratic. The guys have essentially been AWOL for a long while now so it's kinda hard to justify one person being in charge. The more power any one person seems to get the more of a jerk they become anyway. We saw it with Burt and (in my opinion) we saw it with Michael.

To me Angel during the MRE mission was some of the best leadership of the series out of all the characters. The chips were down and he came through. It was almost a coming-of-age story and I was hoping we were going to see a whole new Angel after that. Unfortunately he's back to his old self.

[Drew227598]

To throw my two cents into this as far as Angel not saying anything to Hope and just going to check the alarm, In the Military you are trained to spring into action and not give amplifying instructions to those around you as to what or why you are doing what you are doing. You are used to everyone around you doing the same and or knowing what to do if something goes down and often forget when you’re around civilians that they are not trained as you were. You cannot fault the man for falling back on his training in a situation such as this; it’s why the Military drills and trains as much as we do. So when the shit hits the fan you don’t think you just react or as we call it muscle memory. Now something they should have done when first setting up the rules of The Tower was also setting up some PRP (pre response plans) for different situations, i.e. zombies are attacking everyone man’s there battle stations, Internal intruder alarms goes off everyone freezes on station and a group of pre-approved people meet somewhere and sweep the building from room to room. I understand that this wouldn’t be perfect and they would have to change and adapted there TTP (tactics, techniques, and procedures) as times goes on or as situations predict such as the Mallers attacking. Not to get to far off subject and not to climb to high up on my soap box but this boils down into a lack of better planning from the get go. No one is perfect but honestly in my opinion as an Officer in the Military Angel has failed as a leader and as a senior enlisted noncommissioned officer Michael has failed the group as a leader as well. For the most part a good senior noncom is worth 3 or 4 JO’s but in this case it doesn’t seem that either are doing a very good job. I guess for now we have to stick with the lesser of the two evils and hope that Michael can remember what it is to be a good leader and lead people!

[Drew227598]

Maybe it's time to go with something a little more democratic. The guys have essentially been AWOL for a long while now so it's kinda hard to justify one person being in charge. The more power any one person seems to get the more of a jerk they become anyway. We saw it with Burt and (in my opinion) we saw it with Michael.

To me Angel during the MRE mission was some of the best leadership of the series out of all the characters. The chips were down and he came through. It was almost a coming-of-age story and I was hoping we were going to see a whole new Angel after that. Unfortunately he's back to his old self.

As an officer Angle has gone through several classes (4 years’ worth) on leadership and is said to be fresh out of OCS when all this went down. He is 24 which leads me to believe his is around a 02 or possible 03 (Army officer advance at different rates than other branches). He shouldn't need to have the chips be down before he steps up and takes charge of the situation; this shouldn't be a coming of age story because it means he can't lead under any and all circumstances. That just means the tax payers wasted money on his training because he doesn't have the ability to lead in him. Some men are born to lead other are born to follow, he clearly is a follower. Not saying it's a bad thing because we can't have all leaders otherwise nothing would get done.

[nikvoodoo]

It's so nice to see fresh faces in the discussion. Welcome to hell gentlemen! ;)

[Drew227598]

It's so nice to see fresh faces in the discussion. Welcome to hell gentlemen! ;)

If this is Hell why am I not in charge yet?

[nikvoodoo]

Cause this guy is already a community member (http://zombiepodcast.com/forum/member.php?1195-Satan)

[Ryan]

He shouldn't need to have the chips be down before he steps up and takes charge of the situation
I agree. Angel's deferential to a fault. He can't seem to handle any big problems when Michael's not around. Angel's also really bad at being proactive (rather than reactive) and dealing with people issues. A good recent example of that is when he just ignored Riley being boozed up because she gave him some lip service. When someone's got problems big enough to get slurring drunk in the middle of the day during the zombie apocalypse it's a situation you really shouldn't ignore, triply so when they're (at the very least) a combat buddy you went through the hell of zombie ground zero at the arena with. With that kind of attitude it's lucky he didn't get shipped out. Half his squad could be walking around with PTSD and he'd be oblivious.

That being said, we can argue about the way Angel should act or just deal with the way he does act. Two big things he has going for him is he tends to make logically sound (if not always people friendly) decisions and Angel does seek advice rather than blindly dictate like Michael and especially Burt tend to do.

[Drew227598]

I agree. Angel's deferential to a fault. He can't seem to handle any big problems when Michael's not around. Angel's also really bad at being proactive (rather than reactive) and dealing with people issues. A good recent example of that is when he just ignored Riley being boozed up because she gave him some lip service. When someone's got problems big enough to get slurring drunk in the middle of the day during the zombie apocalypse it's a situation you really shouldn't ignore, triply so when they're (at the very least) a combat buddy you went through the hell of zombie ground zero at the arena with. With that kind of attitude it's lucky he didn't get shipped out. Half his squad could be walking around with PTSD and he'd be oblivious.

That being said, we can argue about the way Angel should act or just deal with the way he does act. Two big things he has going for him is he tends to make logically sound (if not always people friendly) decisions and Angel does seek advice rather than blindly dictate like Michael and especially Burt tend to do.

Very good point, I guess I wont be happy until they write me into the story so I can step up and take charge lol

[HaveCrowBarWillTravel]

To throw my two cents into this as far as Angel not saying anything to Hope and just going to check the alarm, In the Military you are trained to spring into action and not give amplifying instructions to those around you as to what or why you are doing what you are doing. You are used to everyone around you doing the same and or knowing what to do if something goes down and often forget when you’re around civilians that they are not trained as you were. You cannot fault the man for falling back on his training in a situation such as this; it’s why the Military drills and trains as much as we do. So when the shit hits the fan you don’t think you just react or as we call it muscle memory. Now something they should have done when first setting up the rules of The Tower was also setting up some PRP (pre response plans) for different situations, i.e. zombies are attacking everyone man’s there battle stations, Internal intruder alarms goes off everyone freezes on station and a group of pre-approved people meet somewhere and sweep the building from room to room. I understand that this wouldn’t be perfect and they would have to change and adapted there TTP (tactics, techniques, and procedures) as times goes on or as situations predict such as the Mallers attacking. Not to get to far off subject and not to climb to high up on my soap box but this boils down into a lack of better planning from the get go. No one is perfect but honestly in my opinion as an Officer in the Military Angel has failed as a leader and as a senior enlisted noncommissioned officer Michael has failed the group as a leader as well. For the most part a good senior noncom is worth 3 or 4 JO’s but in this case it doesn’t seem that either are doing a very good job. I guess for now we have to stick with the lesser of the two evils and hope that Michael can remember what it is to be a good leader and lead people!

Drew Welcome aboard!
Ok, so you did say you didn't fault Angel for "falling back on his training" by rushing to the alarm, but go on to say that they should have set up PRP (a moment of digression.. PRP means something different in the AF).
You also say that:
"Now something they should have done when first setting up the rules of The Tower was also setting up some PRP (pre response plans) for different situations, i.e. zombies are attacking everyone man’s there battle stations, Internal intruder alarms goes off everyone freezes on station and a group of pre-approved people meet somewhere and sweep the building from room to room."

I agree with that statement, planning should have been done. However...

isn't the very definition and reason for Training is to keep you from Reacting? Isn't it supposed allow you to "Respond" instead? This is how I read the above quote. So even if they didn't set up a response plan, it would have been personally internalized due to years of training right?

By the way.. join us at the Veterans group.

[HaveCrowBarWillTravel]

As an officer Angle has gone through several classes (4 years’ worth) on leadership and is said to be fresh out of OCS when all this went down. He is 24 which leads me to believe his is around a 02 or possible 03 (Army officer advance at different rates than other branches). He shouldn't need to have the chips be down before he steps up and takes charge of the situation; this shouldn't be a coming of age story because it means he can't lead under any and all circumstances. That just means the tax payers wasted money on his training because he doesn't have the ability to lead in him. Some men are born to lead other are born to follow, he clearly is a follower. Not saying it's a bad thing because we can't have all leaders otherwise nothing would get done.


Drew,

Correct me if i'm wrong, but doesn't Officer Candidate School only run for a year and some change? You're either prior enlisted or a civilian with a college degree already in hand right?

Crowbar out!

[Drew227598]

Ok on to the real stuff, I was under the impression that when Angel went to OCS he went to a 4 year collage with a ROTC program where they drill leadership into them each and every day. I didn’t take into consideration that they Army does allow people who already have a college degree to go to boot camp and then take a few week long class and get put in charge of people so I probably was wrong with that statement.

To clarify what I meant when I was talking about the security force clearing the tower and everyone else staying on station I was using what the Navy does. In the event of a security breach either on board or on the pier the ship goes to security alert and everyone on board freezes on station and only certain pre-assigned individuals head down to the Armory, get armed up and respond to the situation. This way you don’t have people moving all over the place and you can better control the situation at hand. Angel fell back on his training just like the Security forces we use fall back on their training and everyone else stays on station.

We can sit here and “argue” for the lack of a better term about what they should and shouldn’t do, but I think it boils down to is the tower needs some real military leadership from some senior enlisted folks such as you and I (Hard to tell in your pick but you’re an E-6 right?) or a seasoned Officer.

[HaveCrowBarWillTravel]

Heheh. The only person who argues about Angel is my man Ra1th. Anyway, OCS (USA,USN,USMC) and OTS(USAF) are all "short" classes on developing officers be they civilians or prior enlisted. Angel had only been out of OCS 30 days befor the stuff hit the fan. Compared to Mike and Saul, he was not only the FNG, but a pushy officer to boot.

I dig your line of thought about security details set up, but one thing my time on this forum has taught me... the KCverse has only has sooo much room for military logic. LOL.
I'm an E7 now..almost forgot you asked. Thanks.
Anyway, a response to the alarm is warranted instead of an head on rush into the unknown.

Crowbar Out!

[ilanagl]

Doesnt look like he's gonna get out of this one.

[Ra1th]

Doesnt look like he's gonna get out of this one.

Wanna bet?

[ilanagl]

I don't know it's not looking good

[itsallgoodie]

There is 17 pages of posts here when there should really be one. the answer is and forever will be: No. NO. NO!

[Zombiephyllic]

It doesn't look good. Too bad , he's come a long way from commander suck up he used to be.

[Ra1th]

I'm convinced that they'll both survive this situation. If they don't I'll trash the Ra1th account, and start a new one.

[nikvoodoo]

I'm convinced that they'll both survive this situation. If they don't I'll trash the Ra1th account, and start a new one.

Don't worry. If Angel dies, we'll all trash your account for you :p

[Luna Guardian]

Angel won't die, he'll ascend ;)

[HaveCrowBarWillTravel]

Accckk! Why did I read this post? I haven't listened to the last two episodes yet! WTF was I thinking? LOL